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Yaeli,

I AGREE! That’s why i think that the only way forward is to start talking today! Everyone has to talk to everyone, without saying ” this is my partner” or ” this is not my partner” and without saying ” i have some pre conditions”…. TODAY is always much better than Tomorrow when it comes to Occasions! We always talk about lost occasions, never about the occasions themselves!

Ramzi – everyone is talking and has been talking, but no-one is listening, and even if they are, they don’t want to really hear what is being said to them, they are just listening to the monologue in their own heads. Look at the conversation a few topics below. Lots of questions, no direct answers. No action, no concrete proposals.

It’s all talk talk talk. What is the expression in Arabic? Kalum Fadi?

“Kalam Fadi” Empty words ….

But you know what Lisooosh ? What do you suggest that we do ? I personally have my plans, but they are not appropriate for the moment …it’s good that we know that everyone is talking and that no one is listening…. But at LEAST we are talking! One day someone will listen…

The Monologue is everywhere, it’s in my head, in your head, in everybody’s head! and thank god it’s there! You can’t expect from human beings not to have a their own monologues in their heads! Society itself is a Monologue in its member’s head…

No action and not concrete proposals…i agree! What kind of action do you expect? Talking is an Action…we are not negotiators Lisooosh…. All we can do is Talk! We can find a solution for the conflict in a matter of hours, but does this mean anything ? i don’t think so, we are not decision makers, we are just part of the problem and i always believed that the solution to a problem is always hidden inside the problem itself…that’s why, i don’t mind the ” talk talk talk talk talk” and i actually Enjoy it! As long as it’s not Shoot shoot shoot or kill kill kill …. i really don’t mind talking for ages….

And by the way, you say that everyone is talking and has been talking , but no one is listening …. well, i agree, i am the first to be in this situation…But did it cross your mind for a second that from the First day Good Neighbours started till today, i slightly changed a lot of my positions ? we can’t be in total harmony, we have been killing each other for the last 60 years, we will not fall in love with each other tomorrow, it’s not that easy! So if each one of us listens to one word out of the thousands of words said to him, slowly, we will build a sentence and one day perhaps we will come up with a common monologue…

And one last comment : I prefer Talking for nothing rather than not talking at all… so i’m not complaining … Thank you for this Blog Yaeli!

[...] Original post by Yaeli and powered by Img Fly   [...]

Ramzi – I already said exactly what I believe needs to be done on the previous thread. I already said what I think are the roadblocks for that action. I got no answer, neither positive or negative. I have to assume that I wasn’t really heard.

I too enjoy to talk, but it has to go somewhere, not round in endless circles. Maybe it’s a cultural thing, but words to me are a prelude, not a beginning, middle and end.

We have a saying in Scotland, where I grew up: “All talk and no action.”

[...] “The passing of time, it seems to me, the passing of time without resolution, is the greatest evil we face. The passing of time compounds problems beyond measure. The passing of time makes everything more convoluted. This is especially so when it comes to some of the thorniest issues facing palestinians and israelis: refugees and settlers,” writes blogger Yaeli here. Amira Al Hussaini [...]

Well, as you can see Lisoosh,

i’m the only palestinian (and very often , the only Arab) really answering everyone’s questions on this blog….did you ever think that i have a life other than good neighbour’s blog ? I’m trying my best to be here , to answer everyone’s questions…. But sadly enough, Alone, i can’t do all the work at once…i’m really sorry for that, i’d love to become Super Ramzi one day, but till now, i’m just Ramzi… So you all can assume that i don’t read what you write, you all can feel it … i can’t do more! I’m doing a lot already, and what i’m getting from most of you people, especially today, is ” you never read what we write” … If i talk about war, it’s bad, if i talk about peace, i’m a useless dreamer, and more than that, my dream is DANGEROUS, if i talk about another Way , my other way is impossible… what do you expect from me exactly ? to say ” Everything is great ” ? to say ” You all hold the truth,i must shut my mouth forever and ever Amen ” ? … I’m facing an IMPOSSIBLE TASK of representing all the palestinian people, of defending a cause in which i’m one amongst millions, of holding the responsibility of Attacks i never commited, of justifying acts i never did ….so i ask you for a little bit of understanding ….all of you!

What is wrong with what i’m saying here ? I’m with Yaeli on the fact that every day without a solution is a lost one…. That’s all i said! I am not the Devil for god’s sake!

You deserve that at the very least, Ramzi. Understanding, I mean. And I do believe from what I’ve read that those who contest what you say are extending understanding to you.

And you do deserve respect for what you have to say, agree with it or not. This blog is doing its job; fostering a way for people to connect, to realize we have more in common than we think, even we outsiders.

As for time, time has a way of healing all wounds. What is of the moment at a particular time fades past memory as time goes on. And we can contest that, although we’d like to believe it, since human beings cling to what they believe to be their right, regardless of whether it tramples other peoples’ rights.

A refugee is one who originally left his/her place of origin. Descendants are not refugees by extension, unless they’ve been in a temporary camp awaiting re-settlement by the world community, or re-absorption post-conflict in their original homes, or absorption through emigration to welcoming countries. The Palestinian refugee camps are no longer refugee camps, they are towns, villages, cities with all the infrastructures (inadequate though they may be) of permanent settlements. The children of refugees have become the inhabitants of newly-established towns, villages, cities.

As for settlers – those who settle in the West Bank with the intent of staying there as their biblical right, that’s a thorny question. Israel is looking at giving up those geographic areas as they’re not part of the original State of Israel dating to 1948; they’re a signature of conquest, even though Israel did not initiate those wars post-statehood. In other geographies such conquest is taken for granted and everything and everybody settles into their new/cum-permanent realignment, much as parts of Europe were divvied up after the two WWs. Israel is expected to march to a different drummer, one whose exalted expectations goes beyond the ordinary.

That’s life.

Ramzi.S. Mar 9th, 2007 at 10:27 am

Yaeli,

I AGREE!

You do? Huh?

Oh yes i do!

Rita,

I’m sorry to tell you that …that’s not life …. that’s your definition of ” Life”, which is a very very different thing…unless you assume that your definition is the right one , in this case, i can’t say anything! but if this was ” Life” , we wouldn’t be here. If we are in a conflict, it’s because some people believe that this is not life and some others believe that it is.

Now, That’s Life!

I don’t. The original refugees may soon pass on to a better world but who can prove that he’s a descendant of a refugee is entitled and will always by entitled to the right of his grandparents etc. That very same thing is now going on with Warsaw (I think it is Poland) and the jews. After all this time they were not allowed to retrieve their rightful property in compensation. Last week orso the Polish gov’t allowed for it. Even with this hiatus of all those years in between and even with the passing on of generations. Why should it count for 1 and not for the other? Sure, the return will be quite impossible but what have we seen till now? Did it work out for the first generation? Nope. So there you are. The practical implementation was a difficulty anyway: 1st, 2nd or 3rd generation… Makes no difference.
Settlers are bound by (international) laws. You can put 1 million people on the west-bank but there are resolutions and international law and a growing Palestinian population as well existing there. So even if one lives under the impression that one’s ‘personal roots’ belong to a place it should be made clear that those roots are planted in soil that are -to say the least- disputable. Where Israel asks of Palestinian refugees to return to their own state -if and when peace will ever be obtained and a Palestinian state will finally be pronounced- Israel cannot measure with different measurements for Israeli’s. They too would have to return to ‘their own state’ (unless one is willing to become a Palestinian citizen).
I find it, except understandable that all this will involve human emotions, quite clear cut and square.

Guys do give Ramzi a bit of a break here, he is only one person and feeling beleaguered. Remember too there are some cultural differences at work as far as methods of engaging one another in discussion –Ramzi from looking over the exchanges in the last couple of threads I’d say you’ve been accepted into the fold and are being engaged with the directness of manner that we Jews and Israelis tend to engage one another.

Tsedek,

I agree with yaeli when she says that our enemy is time! i don’t agree that much when it comes to the definitions of refugees and settlers , eventhough she never gave any static definition, she gave the two possible meanings, that’s why i didn’t comment on that!

I agree with you too! Only time will change a lot of things! Wounds will never heal during the conflict, they will heal years after its end…but this conflict MUST end soon, and the only way that always lead to peaceful solutions on this planet was TALKING! so , let’s incite our leaders to talk, to talk seriously! another way is always possible, nothing is worse than human beings not communicating….as far as i can recall , in history, Silence never lead to peace!

@Ramzi: Of course leaders must talk. I just didn’t read that bit in the posting (?) It goes without question.

@Yaeli: are you addressing me with your comment? *_*
I’m Ramzi’s friend (at least that’s what I like to think) – I was not “beleaguering” him – (did you read that in my reaction, Ramzi?) – If anything, I can honestly say that I more connect to the arabic mentality on the point of discussion than the Israeli ‘directness’ which I, myself, often find quite insulting.

Tsedek! You are my friend, we all are friends! I didn’t read anything in your reaction , i understood it just as you meant it! Ha kol metsuyan … ( i love using some words in hebrew here and there sometimes ….Beseder ? )

Hahaha Ramzi: ahla !

Actually, I didn’t give a definition for either settler or refugee –I put out the range of possibilities. The definition Rita provided is the definition of refugee (that is, applying only to those who were directly removed from their homes and not extending to their children born in exile, their grandchildren, etc) as it has been applied to every single case and every single country where people have been displaced EXCEPT for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. [I believe that was her point when she said "well that's life"].

Tsedek definitely was not directing that comment at you but rather responding sort of to all of us (lol, myself included).

Ramzi your not alone here, i must say i’m not always around, then again like you said there is life outside the blog and ive been way to busy lately. Though that does not excuse my absence, anyway sorry Ramzi!!

Yaeli i agree with you, it gets complicated everyday, not only because of the whole refugee and settlers issue, but even our views of each other dwell in hatred! We should start talking now, the problem as lisoosh stated that no one listens that i believe is true… people don’t listen, Israelis don,t listen to Palestinians and vice versa.
This is a major problem and if we don’t do something soon… well lets say im hoping it doesn’t become too late!
Any suggestions anyone to how we can change this situation, I think the blog is a great idea, but we need something bigger that would reach more people… we need to make people listen and understand that this situation today should end, so that there will be peace in this region once and for all!

Well, this blog is fine. But the problem is that there are so many blogs and organizations and institutions and individuals that are all saying the same thing but are not united. Tens of (or maybe hundreds?) blogs, organizations etc. etc. have not enough voice to be heard. It is only when they unite as ONE block (and yes, the prestige of having ‘founded the initiative’ then will be lost for many bloggers etc.), they (we) can be heard.

Dalia -Getting a larger community to communicate well is a pretty big challange, especially if such a small group of interested individuals are having trouble.

It might be good to look at this as a training exercise – a way to learn how to communicate effectively with people from another culture and way of thinking, so that it becomes possible to act as facilitators/translators in the world at large.

There are lots of ways to start improving communication.
One simple tool is for Person B to repeat back whatever Person A said in their own words, to show that they heard and understood what they are saying BEFORE actually responding to that one point. It can be a little slow and cumbersome, but seeing as how it is proving frustrating to people that they don’t feel they are really being heard and aknowledged, it might be a good start.

Seeing as how Yael is a Professor of Communication, I would hope she has some other ideas.

Well ,

Lisoosh, what you are saying can be true if the societies we are talking about are too different! We are talking about Palestinians and Israelis, our cultures are not that different afterall, Our languages are not that different either, our manners are not that different, and i can tell you for a fact that we do understand each other very very well! The disagreement doesn’t come from understanding, it comes from more difficult issues…Socio-political issues! I happen to know both societies too well to tell you that we are THE SAME! Even if israel is made of people who came from many other cultures, these people are Jewish and they always kept the middle eastern culture of their great great great grandfathers…even if these people were born far far away from the middle east, this culture is inside them very very often!

Conclusion : We are made from the same Mud, from the same social material! your pride won’t allow you to recognize it easily i guess… A little point of info : In arabic, ARABI = IBRI … the root is ” ABARA” ( written in arabic letters) … it means those who crossed the desert… it’s a simple grammatical process that changes the place of one letter to make the word more ” Poetic”… i think that in Ancient hebrew, you have the same process too. Many many Palestinians and Israelis don’t recognize this today because it’s a ” Shame” to be from the same group of the enemy…

You guys recently have inspired me to study history, seriously and in-depth, getting out timelines, notebooks, and studying it all carefully. I recently read the Jared Diamond book about conquests, power, history—not a pretty picture, I am sorry to report (no suprises there for you, I am sure.) I was thinking just the other day in a short interval between my classes (I teach in Texas in a small town located very close to the state capital): My classes are filled with children who are all–every single one of them—a mixture of nationalities, races, and cultures. We get along here, but that was not always the case and it is not the case everywhere. Even over at our high school here, there are those who belong to gangs, trying to find some kind of identity and feel that they have some kind of power (an unfortunate way of achieving these goals. . .). History drew us together to this point, and in some cases the tragedies of history drew us together. . . slavery, conflicts between countries (France, Spain), tragic situations within countries and lack of opportunities in places such as England and Ireland that caused people to immigrate, the decimation of the Indian nations in America…many factors in history brought us together. The ONLY thing that makes the present state of peace possible here in my little corner of the world is the philosophy of tolerance, acceptance, the laws that back this all up and make it illegal to discriminate unfairly, hate laws that punish those who violate the safety and security of others.
Through this blog and other actions, those who post and comment here are providing a foundation for building tolerance, acceptance, respect, and resolution to the problems plaguing their corner of the world. As we talk, we may be able to think of ways to take more concrete steps to promote our philosophy of tolerance and our dream of peace.
As Ramzi says and Dalia mentioned at least once or twice, the cultures of the Israelis and Palestinians are closely related—which makes the current conflict so hard to understand and makes us all desire with all our hearts some kind of resolution. Ramzi, I hope you never doubt the gratitude that I feel for your contributions to this blog.

Oh, off topic: Has anyone heard an update of Kareem’s situation?

Yes, Yaeli, that is precisely what I meant.

I agree with much of what lisoosh mentions, intense discussions and the will to learn from one another to understand one another, to repeat what we have learned, to make an impression upon others is vital.

Ramzi, I see you becoming far more focused when you’re pressed. I agree with you that we are all essentially the same, all of us need the same things and will fight to attain them. Our blind spot is, of course, our measure of our rights as opposed to the rights of others.

lynne’s summation of the wonderful function of this blog is right on. People of good will must struggle constantly with the inequities they force upon others. We must continue to try to make the effort to fully realize that we cannot realize our own dreams by imposing nightmares upon others.

It is the frustration that I read from both sides in this intolerable situation that hits me most clearly. Behind the actions is fear, fear of rejection, and fear of ongoing deadly attacks. Perhaps once the fear of rejection (of overtures, of willingness to meet halfway, of offering trust) is overcome, the fear of ongoing deadly attacks will also be overcome. The big question is, of course, when. How long will this process take? How many more lives will be taken in the process?

It’s mind-numbing.

Ramzi – I am going to have to disagree with you here a little.

Yes, we are all human. And yes, Israelis and Palestinians are much closer than Israelis and the Chinese, or Palestinians and Indians. Yes the languages are similar.

But……
While the Palestinians in the Territories today have a common background (I’m guessing that those in Lebanon/Europe/US etc, have changed over the years), you forget that Israelis, by having lived in a Diaspora for so many years, have adopted a great deal of the cultures they resided in, even those who are already 3rd or 4th generation Israeli. They are a lot more diverse than you seem to believe.
For example:
Russians, Americans, Georgians, Ukrainians, Greeks, Turks, Americans, French, Brits, Australians, Iranians, Iraqis, Syrians, Moroccans, Tunisians, Egyptians, Algerians, Kurds, Azerbaijanis, Indians, Yemites. (and more)

I could go on and on. But I think I made my point. Israelis and Jews are not homogenous. They share a common religion, but not culture. They eat different food, think about family in a different way, have very different relationships to the ME and the Arab world.

Just to be clear, I am Jewish and raised in the West and lived in Israel for several years, my husband is Israeli with Moroccan parents. Even after 10 years of marriage, even after living in each others countries, we still find ways in which we think differently and approach issues in a different way, and a great deal has to do with culture.
I grew up in the UK and live in the US – and THOSE two countries, even with a common language, are very, very different.

We might all be human, but don’t underestimate the level at which we think about and approach the world in different ways.

ok nobody takes me up on what i wrote and probably is the solution if it weren’t for people not wanting to give up their ‘places’ of importance in once establishing a VOICE against extremism and FOR dialogue by uniting

NVM:

about jews and palestinians:

As genetic techniques have advanced, it has become possible to look directly into the question of the ancestry of the Palestinians. In recent years, many genetic surveys have suggested that — at least paternally — the various Jewish ethnic divisions and Palestinians, (and in some cases other Levantines) are genetically closer to each other than either is to the Arabs (of Arabia) or non-Jewish Europeans.

tsedek, yes, I read an article recently stating exactly that. At our family reunion last summer, my cousin Roger announced the results of genetic testing (males in the family) of our large mainly Christian side of the family (my father’s side): We have Tunisian ancestry mixed with our (known) Scotch heritage. With testing, today it is possible to trace genetic origins and ancestry with a reliable degree of accuracy.

Lisoosh,

you can imagine that i’m not totally insane to think that we are ” the Same” , we are not The same! We look like each other, but we are not the same! Jews are like Arabs in many many ways, i realized that being jewish isn’t only a religion, it’s much much more than that, it’s like Being an Arab… Which has nothing to do with Religion… It’s a culture! I’ve seen jewish people in Spain, In Israel, In France, In Colombia, i watch american movies where most of the stories happen around jewish people, i met a few jews in Romania, i went to Turkey with Israeli jewish people ( and we faced the EarthQuake together..and you can’t imagine how wonderful it was because we stood together from the very first second, there was a Retired Israel judge from Haifa with his grandson in the hotel we were staying in , we managed to get him out of the hotel the moment the earthquake took place, While all other people,Europeans and some americans if i remember well, didn’t care much about anyone, each one was caring for himself and running away without looking behind …. Our cultures don’t allow us to do this! We are not individualists … This Old man was originally from Poland , his grandson , who was my age, was totally israeli, yet , we spent more than 48 hours together in the streets of Istanbul , my parents taking care of the old man and me and the Grandson talking about Video Games and playing with our gameboys … we didn’t kill each other! … We met another israeli arab family lost somewhere on the streets of Istanbul ( it was HELL that day) , and they joined us, we later met another israeli jewish family from Mevatseret , they joined us, we then met some jordanians who were traveling with their lebaneese relatives , they joined us…and we spent our next few hours all together , it was really wonderful, then each family ran away to a neighbouring country since all planes to Jordan, Israel, Lebanon, syria, etc were FULL! My family went to Romania, we managed to help the retired judge get to Israel Via jordan, we called some friends from jordan who accompagnied him from the Airport to the Bridge…. It was a really wonderful occasion to feel that we are all the same and that when it comes to helping each other,we do it, and this is cultural !

I agree with you lisoosh, those who are very different are those who come from russia or the former soviet union, but don’t forget that these people lived in the Soviet union, they were forced to give up most of their cultural norms! But , nevertheless, i still believe and feel that we are the same and that our common points must unite us !

Tsedek — you raise a very good point. There are lots of online groups, more growing every day –just found one the other day that was almost entirely made up of Lebanese participants but Israelis are posting there in increasing numbers making a between-nation dialogue –but we are scattered all over the place. There are two things to consider as far as how best to proceed. One of the ideas is to reach out to the other groups and see can we combine forces and become one large community in one large meeting place (possibly on something newly created so no one’s toes feel stepped on). The other option would be to remain as separate distinct online meeting places but with cross-over membership, possibly even designated ambassadors, to keep everyone abreast of what is going on in each and to have inter-group discussions on large projects that we could all collaborate on. There are advantages and disadvantages to both options (provided other groups would agree to either of them). Large groups tend to be less cohesive and, often-times to actually get less done because each individual member feels less personal responsibility –one reason bureaucracies are such a nightmare!– to devolve into cliques and splinter groups and so forth. But they can also be more effective, particularly when launching large-scale projects and when a show of large numbers is needed (because yo, 5 people holding up picket signs makes no impact but if you have 500,000 of them…). This is something that really needs to be thought about and discussed. Combining forces could be very good.

Ramzi – Of course they can get along! Especially as individuals. My husbands best friend here is Jordanian. There is absolutely no reason why the two groups shouldn’t get along, especially in neutral territory.

I merely point out that enthusiasm at similarities means that sometimes we forget the subtle differences that can lead to miscommunications. The fact that individuals can and do get along great, blinds us to the fact that we don’t always mean the same thing with similar words, or that expectations can differ, taking that for granted can lead to mistakes, confusion and frustration.

Yes lisoosh, but this happens inside social cells as small as the family too… Everything taken for granted can lead to mistakes, confusion and frustration! it’s not an israeli-Palestinian exclusivity! All i want to say is that : We can get along! We can have a very wonderful life all together in the middle east! Personally, i want this multi-cultural diverse Middle east! I’m looking forward for it! i think that it’s the best thing that can happen to all of us ( that’s my most sincere feeling when it comes to our conflict)

tsedek,

Why go back to Poland for an example? Why not stay right where you are and look at the concomitant situation in the Middle East at large where an analogous number of Arab Jews either fled or were forced to leave their ‘home’ countries such as Syria, Iraq, Iran and Egypt. Their properties and goods were confiscated, they were bereft of the homeland they had long known and cherished.

Do you imagine perhaps that their original countries of origin will be prepared to deal with them as they now demand Israel do with the Palestinians…offer full restitution, alternatively right of return?

Rita,

I watched a Documentary not a long time ago about those who we call ” Arab Jews” and what was wonderful about this documentary is the Fact that they were the ones telling their own stories and they are very opposed to the Zionnist movement and have a lot against it because it convinced them that they were in Danger in their original countries while it was not true at all, most of them left willingly without thinking twice and now are regretting it…. Arab Governments, being as useless as they always were then played the game of the Zionnist movement and some of them, i repeat, some of them , drove all those who followed the Zionnist mouvement out of their countries ( which i find totally insane) , but they could have stayed! They said it, Most of them arrived to israel and felt betrayed because they left an acceptable situation where they were not very loved to a place where they were only used for statistics and nothing else and where they never felt like everyone else, most of them, who are quite old now, as well as their children, all want to go back to their Homelands because apparently, being the descendant of an ” Arab Jew” isn’t that acceptable in israel…
I really am waiting for the second where every Arab jew will be able to choose freely between Israel and his Arab country of origine , and why not holding a double nationality ? These people can be a Bridge of peace between the Arab World and israel! Sadly enough, they are nowhere in israeli politics when it comes to the relations with the arab world!

Ramzi, what find hopeful about Israel and I see that this is often ignored or discounted by Arab Israelis, is that Arabs are free to practice their religion without fear of persecution and they are (in general) not in physical danger either. I am speaking in generalities here because we all know that there are exceptions (and so there are, of course, some hateful Jews as there are hateful people in every culture). Arab Israelis can serve in government and they have a voice and are not harmed for speaking out in criticism of the government. There are tremendous efforts to provide educational opportunities for minorities in Israel. I think that Yaeli could say more about that as she teaches a diverse group of students.
Could Israel do better? Of course, not only for Arab Israelis but for all Israelis.
I think we all agree that leaders and governments fall far short of our expectations and hopes.
The leadership in Israel right now is not too popular. I like Livni but few other leaders. Most countries have ineffective bureacracies and poor leadership–such a disappointment.
If Arab Israelis want to return to their homeland, that is understandable. There should be some means provided to compensate them so that they can start fresh in the country of their choice.
I am a warrior in the US “War on Poverty”…It seemed so easy to me initially. Just provide opportunities, support both emotional and financial, extend friendship and work hard to help those who needed assistance. It has not been easy or even effective in too many cases. Often those we tried to help complained that no one was helping them, that there were obstacles, etc. The obstacles existed within them–in their perceptions which were inaccurate and in their attitudes. Education is helping to a degree. Here in Texas, our at-risk kids get much more help than the regular kids or the gifted kids, and they make the least progress. In great measure, it is their background experiences and the attitudes of the adults around them that distort their reality and perceptions, leading to bad choices. They are not often grateful for the help given to them even when we make super-human efforts to make their lives better. And, that reminds me of the Arab-Israelis who dislike Israel so much. If it is not a good place to live, they should make the decision to leave for a place that is a better match for them. Frankly, I have heard many Arab Israelis express gratitude for their advantages in Israel—Mike’s family, if you recall, is Arab Israeli. What accounts for the differences in opinions? Perhaps some Arab Israelis have better experiences than others, or have nothing to compare their experiences with, or just don’t want to be in Israel and prefer their homes of origin. That said, I do feel that the government in Israel must do all that is possible to ensure that all citizens in Israel have good opportunities and are treated with great respect and kindness. Educational opportunities should be provided and the rights of Arab Israeli citizens protected. Perhaps those who live in Israel (not a visitor like me) could speak with greater accuracy.

Ramzi,

I believe every word you’ve written. It can be true, every bit of it. And I can understand all of that. But you’ve written a broad outline of what you have read and heard and seen and perceived. The devil is always in the details. And there are details and there are complications.

Who cannot understand elderly Jewish Arabs fleeing for fear of further and more prolonged persecution? For the most part, although they loved their land of birth they lived a life of subjugation, their presence barely tolerated in some Arab countries, and in others they enjoyed a more relaxed existence. But they fled, and they were also pushed out. A familiar syndrome, isn’t it?

As a Palestinian you understand that. As a human being I understand that. It’s difficult to leave the land of your birth, of your cultural inheritance, only to discover once having left it that the country which has accepted you doesn’t quite reflect the one you left behind. Succeeding generations find the blow much softer, until it’s gone completely as assimilation takes its course.

But actually, that’s not why I wrote my earlier message, which was to point out that land and possessions were left behind and anything that could have been portable was also left behind because it was confiscated by the country’s authorities. My point being, in an equal world where displaced Palestinians eager to return to their homeland within the confines of the Israeli State, urging their case forward – are they also willing to accept that the countries from which their Jewish brethren were displaced should offer compensation or restitution, since we’re talking equal numbers of refugees on either side.

An interesting theatre is being played out in the U.S. right now, with Cuban exiles exulting in the near-death (soon to become reality) of Fidel Castro. When he overthrew the corrupt Battista regime, wealthy and educated Cubans left in droves for the U.S., most settling in Florida. We’re talking about a time-frame roughly analagous to the Palestinian displacement. Cuban-Americans are thriving, they’re well settled, highly educated, have a lot of clout in high places and have themselves aspired to high places very successfully. They have grown a deep attachment to their new country, while still loving the one they left behind. Very few will return to Cuba once Castro is gone. But they will work unstintingly to effect a revolutionary change there to produce a democratic government so that the island and its people may be able to thrive.

Lynne is perfectly correct in her observations, that you can knock yourself out in your sincere efforts to try to help people better themselves, teach them to have the determination to work on their own behalf, to attain pride, only to face resentment from those very same people. That too is human nature, and we do our best to work around that aspect of what we all share.

Ramzi, I thought your entry just before the last one I wrote to which you are now responding was really terrific. It gave me a warm glow and a distinct feeling that change for the better can and will happen, if your attitude really reflects that of a good number of other Palestinians.

Heh. A few points:

I don’t know anyone who calls him/herself an “Arab Jew”. Mizrahi/Sepharadi Jews, yes. But “Arab Jews”?

I have never met a Mizrahi Jew who would have been so self-hating as to deny Jews the right to self-government (aka Zionism).

I have never met a Mizrahi Jew who actually wanted to return to the diaspora hellhole they fled from or were banished from. We are Jews; we are home; all we left behind is slavery, oppression, pogroms and fear.

Ramzi/Raccoon -

Both of your impressions of Mizrachi Jews are seriously distorted stereotypes.

Raccoon, you’re right, they do tend to be Zionist, but many do have a fondness for their birth countries, understandably. Some miss them more, such as the Syrians and some less, depending on how they were treated there.

Ramzi, I don’t know which documentary you saw, but it sounds pretty off base. Firstly, Raccoon is right, while “Arab Jew” is a new buzzword, very few would like to be called that. I’m sorry to say, but some of my husbands family (all Mizrachi) are the most bigoted right wingers you will ever find. They might be far more comfortable in your families home than in mine, but they would never admit it.
Some Mizrachim had a harder time assimilating than others, and that would be part of the resentment that you saw in the documentary. For instance, the Iraqis assimilated well, while the Moroccans tended to drift, were housed in tents for a while and became very bitter. Then again, the Iraqis had a high level of education and the Moroccans less so, so their employment opportunities were more limited.
All of the Mizrachis do not want to return home. The Syrians that I have met seem to be the most homesick. The Moroccans among the least, although my Mother in Law was surprised at how much she enjoyed a recent trip there.
In addition it is not “unacceptable” to be the descendant of an “Arab Jew”. 30 years ago, Mizrachi and Ashkenazi Jews tended to separate more (and like I mentioned previously, they are very, very different culturally) but intermarriage is now very high and the two different groups are blending. Plus, over 50% of the Israeli public is Mizrachi, they are hardly some put apon minority.

That said, it would be nice if they were able to return to their countries of their birth if they chose, or at least have the chance to visit.

Liloosh -

I only speak of what I know firsthand. Most of my friends are Mizrahi or have some Mizrahi heritage – it is of them that I speak. Admittedly, they are mostly upper and upper-middle class – but then again, I know plenty of people from all levels of the society… or maybe I just know stereotypic people. Although I doubt the latter.

This whole “Arab Jew” nonsense seems like another weapon in the propaganda war; it implies that these people are Arabs who just happen to be Jewish by religion. Which is utter nonsense – they are Jews who lived in Arab countries in the Diaspora. Some communities lived in Arab states since the Babylonian exile; others (most, IIRC), especially from the Maghreb, moved there after the Spanish Exile (which is also how most European Jews got to Europe).

Rita, what does it matter if their former countries would allow them to return? Do you actually think ANY descendant of those people -and we’re talking grandchildren now- would feel more at home in a country their grandparents had lived instead of they themselves grew up in? Restitutions: the official documents of ownership that were kept by the Iraqi governments have been seized during the American invasion in Iraq and been given by the Americans to the Israeli government and are now somewhere in a safe in Israel of which even the reporter reporting this story that time on tv was not allowed to tell where it is. They are being kept as negotiation tool if and when the Palestinian refugees compensation issue will become actual. The Iraqi’s themselves will get nothing.

For the rest: no, you will have to look as for a needle in a haystack to find an arab-jew (which btw is a correct description eventhough they themselves don’t call them that way – only you don’t hear much from the ‘arab-muslim’ or ‘arab-christian’ as well) – willing to live in an arab country now.

As for the discrimination ‘thing’- it has improved and is improving, but who is denying the ‘glass-ceilings’ in Israeli society is fooling himself. Not longer than about 2 years ago a lawyer who had just finished his studies wrote hundreds of letters to law firms who were looking for lawyers and was not even invited to come for a talk, when he changed his mizrachi name into something else from the 10 letters he pulled this stunt on he was invited to 3 for a talk. When my son who doesn’t look mizrachi was clubbing he more than once came home boiling of anger because his ‘darker’ friends were refused entrance. “The selector” at the entrance of parties and clubs is a famous phenomenon – if you’re ‘into the scene’.

It may have escaped anyone but the ‘beitar jerushalayim’ parameter is a fair one to follow (albeit racist still pointing to the position of ‘the arab-jew’) – they chant ‘death to the arabs’ but ‘death to the neo-nazi’s’ (meaning ashkenazie macabi-tel-aviv) as well.

And one more thing: as a result of plain, downright – without hiding it – discrimination of the past, towns now suffering the highest unemployment and receiving the least ‘quality’ education chances are the ones arab-jews were placed in after they arrived to Israel to form settlement in the peripheria, places like kiriyat shmone, lod and now ‘famous’ sderot. This is all a result of the former discrimination.

But still Ramzi: it will be very hard to find an arab jew of this generation wanting to go back to live in any arab country their grandparents came from.

Ramzile Jews in arab countries were very much forced out through attacks and threats and the pressures for them to leave did not come from Israel. If you look at what is currently going on in Yemen you can get a good idea of some of the tactics that were used http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3373122,00.html. I have a colleague who has a very interesting life story, having been raised by two parents who were blind. His mother did not become fully blind until her late teens as a result of a congenital defect where her eyes slowly weakened to the point that she could make out only vague shadows. His father’s blindness was another matter. He and his family were Libyan Jews and in the 1950s there were a number of pograms against the Jews there. One day, at the age of 7, he and the handful of other Jewish children at his school were pulled from their classrooms –and sent home to their parents after having been blinded in one eye as a rather firm message to get out while they still could. His family and the other Jewish families around them fled and his family made their way to Israel. Because of the damage done to the nerve networks in the eye that was blinded he also lost sight in his second eye by the age of 11. You really won’t find many jews from arab countries who would want to go back. Lebanese jews may be an exception to this but for other countries…pretty few and far between.

Raccoon –

Fair enough, I can’t argue with your personal experiences. Mine are a bit defferent, but that could come from hanging out with different people.

Lisoosh, you make a good point. We all come from different perspectives.

tsedek,

The question of right of return for Jews who lived in Muslim countries within the Middle East for thousands of years is a rhetorical one. It was introduced into this debate as a reminder that of the original 60,000 or so Palestinians who left their homes when Israel was declared a state in 1948 and which number has now swelled to ten times the original number has their counterpart in a like number of Arab-Jews (Sephardim) who were forced by unquestionably urgent circumstances to leave their countries of origin. If Israel is faced with the problem of restitution/return, being pressed to by the new demand brought into the Saudi proposal for peace, why is no mention being made of like restitution/return potential for Jews who were forced to leave Arab lands, and whose properties and goods were removed from their possession?

This is a question that is meant to be considered within the total problem, not one to be sidelined as though it never happened, as though it would be of no consequence, for if the Palestinian question is of such great consequence then the other must needs be as well.

The Palestinians insist on their right of return and may eventually settle for compensation, since to permit return would sound the death knell for the State of Israel as a Jewish state. Arab-Jews, now long established in Israel would not find the idea of a return to their beloved homelands very attractive, given the circumstances they would face – but restitution, compensation, what of that? Are the countries that ousted them, now demanding compensation for the Palestinians lining up to hand the same out to their former citizens?

It’s sad, but another aspect of human nature that there is such a divide between Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jewry, but there are two separate traditions and cultures, even religious observances. When Jews found their home in Europe pre WW2 (Ashkenazic) those living in Germany and Austria always looked down their noses at their Lithuanian or Hungarian brethren.

When Japan and China took in Ashkenazic Jews during the Holocaust, there were already Sephardic Jews in residence who had lived there for centuries starting as traders and who had built a life of wealth and elitism for themselves, and they considered the new-comers upstarts, although they did make efforts to assist them. I believe the first Jews who came to the United States in the 17th or 18th century were Sephardim, who were considered the aristocrats among Jews, and when Ashkenazim arrived they were an embarrassment to the earlier ones, appearing as crudely-behaved peasants.

It’s difficult for human nature to turn itself around too readily.

Rita -

Please… do not assist in this horrid rape of memes. It’s not Arab-Jews. In the same way that Jews who happened to dwell in Poland, Russia, Ukraine etc. for a while are not “Slavic-Jews”. They are Jews Jews. We all are. And that’s the point.

What’s your problem, Raccoon?

Jews living in Europe are European Jews
Jews living in the US are American Jews
Jews living in Arabic countries are Arabic Jews
Why the hell make things so complicated?

Tsedek, following this line, they would be Arabian Jews. not Arab or Arabic Jews.

Tsedek,

I think that what Raccoon doesn’t understand is that you can be an Arab and be a Jew at the same time, you can belong to the two groups! It’s true, the current situation isn’t that clear when it comes to this, there is a war between Arabs and Israelis, who are mostly Jews but this never meant that Arabs can’t be jews and that jews can’t be arabs! Being a Jew is a religion, being an Arab is belonging to the Social Community of Those who Speak Arabic and who follow some traditions ( nothing to do with Islam) So, Raccoon , yes, There are those who are called the Arab Jews. In Egypt, there are some arab jews, in Tunisia, Moroco , Syria and Lebanon too! These people are arabs! Just as their are Christian Arabs and mulsim arabs and Samaritan palestinians, there are Jewish arabs too!

[Wearing my linguistic hat]
In Hebrew (and I’m pretty sure that in Arabic too) there’s ambiguity in the term “Arab” –
There’s no distinction between “Arab by nation” (”Arab”) and “Arab by geography” (”Arabian”).
I don’t think that there are Jews (by religion) which would identify themselves as part of the Arab nation.

There is even more confusion than the problem Omeran highlighted (thanks ).

One can be a Jew by religion and one can be a Jew by race. That is, a Black Dzao Montagnard can be Jewish by religion – but he’ll still be a Black Dzao Montagnard. And a Jew can be, say, a Roman Catholic Christian – he’ll still be a Jew.

There is an attempt by certain people animical to Israel to cast Zionism as a religious movement. This makes it easier to pretend that the Jewish people – Jews as a nation and a race – have no connection to Israel. This is a popular modern anti-semitic tactic, yet another weapon for the destruction of Israel.

Yes, there are Arabs of Jewish religion. They are very, very few and far between. Personally, I met only one (a Libyan of mixed Arab-Berber heritage) – he was a totally insane, but a very devout Orthodox Jew.

The Jews who were exiled from assorted Arab/Muslim lands are Jews Jews, not Arab Jews. The fact that their families lived for a while in Arab-majority areas is immaterial. Their national and ethnic homeland is here, in the land of Israel and Yehuda – in the same way that Greece is the homeland of the Greeks and Finland is the homeland of the Finns.

To call Jews “Arabs” is an attempt at stealing their identity, their heritage, their culture and their homeland. Does this explain my position well enough, Tsedek?

We are all ‘Am Yisrael, not a bunch of people from different ethnicities who just happened to decide to settle on a sliver of blood-soaked barren desert.

*sigh*

Inimical, not “animical”.

*waddles away*

Raccoon/Omeran:

I think to some degree it depends on what people like to call themselves.

As Raccoon mentions, I have never heard a Sephardic Jew call themselves Arab Jews. They share plenty of culture, and language of course, but they tend to distinguish themselves as a separate group. They will typically refer to themselves by country of origin, or area – North African, Persian, Kurdish, Yemenite and so on, and their relationship to the Arab world depends a great deal on the country they came from and the conditions they experienced there.

On the other hand, a large number of people who are stringently anti-Zionist or anti-Israel, like to focus on the Eastern European origins of the first few Aliyahs. There are lots of people out there who will gabble on about how Israel should have been located in Europe to “punish” those countries (how lovely when being someones neighbour is viewed as punishment). It is not a bad thing to remind them that a majority of Jews in Israel are Sephardic and come from Arab countries – that they were already present in the region and that Israel is not some European Colonial power that decided to settle in the Middle East on a whim. In that regard, the term “Arab Jew” helps to focus their attention on that.

Chavarim,

This is pilpul at its very best. I’m happy to agree with all your positions.

Rita –thank you for hitting the nail on the head Definitely pilpul.

And yes Raccoon, of course there are two distinct aspects of being a Jew with one being the religious aspect (and hence people who are non-Jews can convert in and become Jews in the religious sense) and the other being the ethnicity (whether you convert in or convert out in terms of religion, your genes don’t convert along with you and thus a Jew who converts to some other religion nonetheless remains a Jew -just as someone from “deepest darkest Africa” can become a christian, move out of his or her african nation into a land of white people, and adopt all the cultural trappings of his caucasian neighbors but his skin colour won’t change –he’ll still be black. Unless he’s Michael Jackson .

Well,

Raccoon, i have to disagree with you, I never heard a JEW saying ” I AM CHRISTIAN” but i heard a Jew saying i am an Arab… Why ? simply because , and i think that most of the people agree with me, a Jew is someone who follows judaism… It’s a Religion! It’s true that There is the Jewish Nation, but it’s not a Race, just as being an Arab isn’t a Race…. This ” Race” talk is just a pretext for hate….
Being an Arab has nothing to do with being Arabian…Arabia is called Arabia because it was inhabited by the Arabs…you seem to think that Arabs are called Arabs because they came from Arabia, but that’s very very very wrong historically!

You seem to underestimate the Arab culture Raccoon… maybe it’s state today isn’t one of the best states, but the Arab culture is far away from being Racist, segragationist, violent etc…. In other words, I’m proud of being an Arab! I love my culture! and i have reasons to believe that Arab jews are proud of being arab jews….ask Samy Mikhail … he is an Arab jew, and he is holding to his membership in the Arab nation… We have to stop talking about Tribes now…most of us stopped being descendants of these tribes a long time ago …we are in the 21st century now! Those who were semites 3000Years ago disappeared 2000 YEARS AGO! no one of us is completely semite, no one of us is pure! So that Racial and Tribal differenciation that you and rita seem to always make between the two peoples is not worth anything anymore in my opinion…that’s what i can’t understand about this region! People are always blocked by definitions and i think that Both Israelis and Palestinians are suffering from huge identity crisises! Do we really know who we are and what we want ? If you ask me … my answer is easy : We all are human beings, some of us feel Arab some others feel Israeli some others feel Jewish, some feel mulsim, some others feel christians…( it stopped being historical at this stage) What i would like us all to feel is Middle eastern! I guess that only Arab Jews can tell us what they feel…. We can’t talk on their behalf and assume that we are right …

Ramzi, you make some excellent points here. You put it very nicely: “We are all human beings. . . ”
I have been teaching a few classes for gifted and talented students this year and decided that a study of ancient civilizations, beginning with ancient Egypt, would provide a good foundation for their later studies in history. Really, the kids get so little depth with the study of history here. Anyway—I was astonished and amazed by what I learned about the ancient civilizations in the Middle East. Is there any area that can equal the ME in cultural richness? I gained a great appreciation and admiration. From the ME, people began spreading all over the globe. No telling what our genetic heritage is! I learned this past summer that I have Tunisian ancestry on my father’s side of the family. I would never have imagined it. We are—as you say—human beings. Dr. Richard Leakey once wrote that man has survived as a group not because of competition, but because of the ability to cooperate:)

Ramzi – “Who is a Jew” is a question which is several centuries old (if not older).
If anything is certain – it’s the fact that there’s no simple answer.
In my personal view – a Jew is someone who, without doubt, sees himself/herself as part of the “people of Israel”.
By that definition, it’s even possible to become a Jew and still hold a different religion than Judaism.
I think the reason that this is so different from Christianity or Islaam is the fact that Judaism (as a religion) was never forced on anyone.

Oh, and by the way – Ruth’s story (from the “scroll of Ruth”) tells the exactly the story about a woman who becomes a part of the people of Israel, and has nothing to do with religion.

Well,

Omeran, i can Agree with you , but i need some clarifications …. When you say the ” People of Israel” Do you mean the Israel of today ? If yes… then i can tell you that hundreds of thousands of jews are Jewish but don’t feel that they are part of the People of Israel…. There is a huge difference between israelites and israelis …. Otherwise, i agree with you…. But being a Jew , part of the ” People of Israel” or part of the “Israelites” , can’t stop anyone from being an Arab at the same time!

Do you know any Jewish Christian or muslims ? if they exist , then WOW! I would be really surprised!

To call Jews “Arabs” is an attempt at stealing their identity, their heritage, their culture and their homeland. Does this explain my position well enough, Tsedek?

Yes, it shows you position, but your position = your position, not more than that.

If a Jew coming from an Arabic country is not an Arab Jew – then there are no European Jews as well. One just can’t help it that countries like Iraq etc. are Arabic, now can we?

It’s all symantics, everybody knows a Jew is a Jew by birth and not by religion only. If it were like that we could do well away with the majority of Israel that are non-religious at all.

Ramzi -

I said nothing about the Arab culture. This is absolutely irrelevant to my point. Racial “purity” is also irrelevant (as well as almost nonexistant).

But Jews are Jews – not Arabs, not Eskimos, not Azeris. They are Jews, by heritage and culture and definition. They can try to avoid being Jewish – after all, we are one of the most hated and reviled groups of people in history – but the farce will hold until the next Hitler… or Pople Innocent II… or Hamman… or David Duke… or Khmelnitski… or Amin al-Husseini… or Ahmedinejad… or Hassan Narsallah rises to power.

Some famous Christian Jews – Karl Marx and Baruch Spinoza immediately spring to mind. I am sure that the “Jews for Jesus” organization can dig up hundreds of names.

And a famous Jewish Muslim – Adam Gadahn.

Well,

You happen not to know much about the Jews For Jesus…they are not Jews and they are not Christians… Ask them, they will tell you…. I had a group of Jews for jesus at home once!

Karl Marx wasn’t a christian, he was jewish… Spinoza was Jewish too! Why do you think that they are christians ? They never gave up their Jewish religion, on the contrary! They were often rejected by the jewish communities here and there…but they always stayed jewish!

Ramzi – I have to disagree with you about Arabs not viewing themselves as a race – lots of them do.
There are plenty of places where this is evident:
Nubians in Egypt speak Arabic and live in an Arab country, but they are not viewed as Arab.
Sudan has Arab leaders who discriminate against the black, Arabic speaking residents.
Djibouti – was invaded by Arabs, they still have a cast system in place, Arabs (by birth) are viewed as superior and form the government cast, while the original residents are in menial positions – they are viewed as a different race, even while sharing language religion and culture.

I don’t have time for more examples right now, but there are lots of incidences where Arabs (descended from the people of the Arab peninsula) have defined themselves as a specific race, and if fact still do.

did i ever say that arabs don’t view themselves as a Race ? if i said somethign is that to me , being an arab is not a Race, its a culture, a tradition…TO ME…just to me…

Ramzi – check your sources again about Marx, bro. The man was nominally Christian and rabidly anti-Jewish. Spinoza was a Gnostic, with Christian tendencies (he sure as hell wasn’t a Jew, though).

Or, you know what, take me for instance. I am a Discordian Jew. I can’t imagine where you got the weird notion that there are no Jews of non-Jewish religion. Would you like to elaborate on your position?

About JfC – these guys are basically Christians, albeit of a weird denomination.

Religions, BTW, are a bit of a hobby of mine. It pleases Eris that it is so.

Ramzi – I was working from these two statements that you made above:

“There is the Jewish Nation, but it’s not a Race, just as being an Arab isn’t a Race…. This ” Race” talk is just a pretext for hate….”

“Being a Jew is a religion, being an Arab is belonging to the Social Community of Those who Speak Arabic and who follow some traditions”

I understood that you were saying that Arabs did not consider themselves a race. If you were speaking only about youself, I apologize.

Raccoon my friend,

what i meant about Marx is that he was born Jewish and had to convert for political reasons, but he personally never gave up His jewish religion, he criticized it but never gave it up! He criticized all religions and ended up taking his distance from everything called Theology …. But Marx , according to some of his biographers (i don’t have names) never gave up his religion but he just didn’t use it in his Theories…. which is his right!

The point : You can call Marx a Jewish European …. or you can call him an Atheist European … But another example would be Emile Durkheim … He was Very jewish and gave up religion at the end … Did he stay jewish ? Not at all! He gave up judaism due to his social beliefs!

Just as Maimonides was a Jewish Arab , according to his own writtings that i happen to know quite well, his Arab name was: ” Abu Imran Mussa bin Maimun ibn Abdallah al-Qurtubi al-Israili”

and his Hebrew name was : “Moshe ben Maimon ”

Notice the Arab name , it has all the Arab Tradition : “Abu Imran” ” Bin Maimun” ” Ibn Abdallah” ” al Qurtubi” and ” Al Israeli” … you have all his family tree in his name! and this is Arab tradition and that what makes of Maimonides an Arab, as well as some of the traditions he used to write about …

I think somebody is what he feels he is – case closed

Tsedek ??? why do i always have to agree with you ????? WHY ???? WHY ???? whether i like it or not, what you say is always what i mean 1 or -1 …. maybe this means that we are from the same “Race” or maybe from Relative tribes…the Ramzites and the Tsedekites who used to be cousins in 2500 BC ….

( Ok , this was an introduction to what i’m going to say next)

Tsedek ,

I agree, somebody is what he feels he is – case closed

Peace and Love everyone! Peace and Love! We all are Human beings! Ha kol Sababa, kulanoo akhim ! ( i absolutely love mixing languages…)

Does anyone of you living in Israel remember Channel 2’s comedy show “ze oo ze” ??

Ramzi – heh. We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one, I think. It seems like another case of miscommunication between us. For me, your nation, your ethnicity, your race – all of these things exist and they are what they are. You can change your nationality, you can denounce your culture… but your genetic make-up will remain your genetic make-up. Well, at least until genetic engeneering gets good enough. Frankly, for all I care, this doesn’t matter at all – but it’s not me calling the shots. And people can define themselves as whatever they want… it’s what others perceive them as that actually impacts their survival.

Actually, let me have another go at explaining myself:

You are born with a certain genetic make-up. This make-up is usually classified by clans, of sorts – races, or ethnicities, which are further sub-divided by clans, tribes, families etc. Me and you may not care about this, but lots of people apparently do (see “affirmative action”, for example). Being a Jew is belonging to the Jewish ethnicity, or race.

There is also a religion called Judaism, which is traditionally the religion of the Jewish race. It is closely integrated with the enthic Jewish identity and culture. It is a choice, however – someone who was born a Jew into a Jewish religious family can choose to become a Buddhist, for instance. This does not make his race Chinese – he is still a Jew, just one who happens to believe in the Eight Noble Truths. Ergo – Karl Marx was an Atheist Jew (originally a nominal Christian). Moshe Ben Maimom was a Jew Jew. He grew up in a Jewish environment in a larger Arabic context, which naturally influenced the local Jewish culture. His name is relative to the context of this culture.

Just an example for the above:
My granfather is Reuven Ben Moshe Levi. The Russians called him Reuven Moshvitch Levitan. This didn’t make him a Russian – he was still a Jew and they still killed him for being one.

Oh, sorry if the above doesn’t seem to make any sense and/or is full of spelling mistakes. I am more than a bit stoned.

Ramzi – (I find myself wondering why most of my replies are to you)
I think you gave the answer yourself regarding Moshe ben Maimon –
If he was called “Al-Israeli” – it means at least one of the two:
1. He considered himself an Israeli. (which satisfies my definition)
2. His Arab surroundings considered him as an Israeli. (which implies that they could accept him only with this ‘reminder’ that he’s not exactly the same as them).

And on another note – Of course we (well, I) remember “Zehu Ze”. It used to be on Channel 1 though for most of the time (I remember shows dated from 1986 or so). I think there are still re-runs on channel 23 from time to time.

I love zehu ze! I remember a very special Show on a night during the First Iraq War…. Saddam asked an Iraqi man : “Mi Ata ohev yoter, et ha ima shelcha o et ha Saddam Shelcha ?” and the iraqi replied : “Et ha Saddam Sheli sidi et ha saddam sheli”

To those who don’t understand hebrew : ” Who do you love more ? Your mother or Your Saddam ?” ” My Saddam sir , My Saddam sir”

And right omeran, Zehu ze used to be on Channel 1 , it’s the Comedy Store that used to be on channel 2!

This has no relation whatsoever with the subject of the discussion, i know … its just an attempt to put a little bit of fun in this brutal world….

Ramzi -

Heh. D’you remember Haolam HaErev? Gulf War I reminded me

Well Omeran,

These were my Early childhood years! I happen to remember a lot of things from that period! To a point that sometimes, i regret these days …..

Oooops!!!!

I mean , THE RACCOON! I said omeran because i was reading his comment on another thread…Sorrry !

Heh. You know, Ramzi, sometimes I wonder what the point of this is. We’ll probably end up on opposite sides of the barricades anyway, eventually. The new thread kind of brings this home.

Because knowing people as people doesn’t change a damned thing. Palestinian “policemen” I knew and served with on joint patrols – talking and drinking coffee every day for months – ended up trying to kill me and my mates. Just because an old fart decided to consolidate his personal power by killing some guys.

So… why?

Why ? …. I will not say ” you tried to kill them too” … it’s a useless vicious circle! But what i will say is that there is a thing called WAR…nobody seems to really know what it is but it makes people want to kill each other…and if they have no reason to do so, War gives them a Reason….Knowing people as people changes a lot of thing, it’s part of the Civilisation Process ( See Norbert Elias ) , knowing people as people is the Major thing one needs in order to pacify his relations with those who are around him! And this goes for both sides! We have to build a real civil society, not one that is based on military power and violence…A society based on social values and norms, on civilisation, on human life!

As for ending up on opposite sides…let me put it this way : What’s the point of life then ? we’ll probably , and surely, end up dying…. Does this mean that we should all commit suicide?
I think that the probability that we die some day is much bigger than the probability that we end up on opposite sides….i prefer to win a little rather than to loose everything! So i’m talking….

Ramzi,

I believe Raccoon was referring to the first Intifada, when Palestinian police who were trained by the Israeli police, and partially armed by the State of Israel, and the two forces became accustomed to working together and were on fairly good terms.

To the surprise of the Israeli police it was the very same Palestinian police whom they had comradely dealings with as professional forces and whom they had taught, turned against them in support of the Intifada.

Raccoon will doubtless correct me.

Ramzi,

My friend, you feel that what distinguishes Jews as Jews, as a collective, a monolithic group, is religion?

Wrong. Religion is a part of what constitutes being a Jew but certainly not all. And for some Jews religion as such plays no part in their lives at all.

Some Jews, Ramzi, embrace their Jewishness passionately sans religion. Believe it or not. The Jews in the Jew is their soul. Not their religion. These are secular Jews. While it is true that some secular Jews may not feel a huge pull toward their Jewishness, but simply accept it as what they are, there are many more that, despite not being religious feel that their Jewishness is what defines them as human beings.

Rita,

No, The Raccoon is talking about the First few years of Oslo when the Israeli Army and Palestinian Police used to patrol Palestinian cities twice a day, the Palestinian jeeps used to guide the Israeli jeeps in all the Areas called ” Area A” and israeli jeeps used to take the front in areas “B” and “C” , i still remember the Orange flag that the Israeli jeeps used to have when they were on such tours … Israeli soldiers used to smile at us when we were behind them in our cars…it felt wierd the first few times, then we got used to it until it completely Stopped , until Israel decided to take all the belongings of the Palestinian Police from their shared Headquarters ( District Coordination Offices) and to throw them out… I remember this scene very very well… in a matter of hours, those who The Raccoon used to see everyday became homeless and their status changed dramatically …. Why ? Because Someone decided that israel had to abolish all it’s relations with the Palestinian Authority…which i think was one of the WORSE political decisions this person made ….

And again, i would like to get clarifications from The Raccoon about this : Are you 100% sure that those who patrolled with you, the same individuals, shot at you ? It’s interesting …. and if they did, was it really Shooting at You as Mr. The Raccoon or shooting at you as The Israeli Soldier, as a Uniform and a Symbol of the Other side , The occupier , didn’t you shoot at them first?? …you know whati got told ? ” when you wear a uniform, you stop being an Individual X and become a Symbol of the State” ….Anyways, can you remember when the first bullet came out from a Palestinian Police gun ? .. What i believe The Raccoon is that , and please don’t take it as an offense, you are quite locked up inside a few beliefs that you can’t really proove, but that you really feel are true… The Shin bet told you stuff, your government told you stuff, you never really was able to verify anything, you were a simple soldier and your job was to follow orders and to believe everything you are told, and i think that this is the problem on both sides! I’m sure that if i tell you my version of the facts, it will not look at all like yours and that you will say ” you are lying, you are dreaming” something that i hear very often when discussing such things , my only advice to you is : Try tp remember that nothing is neutral! Your side is not that clean, just as my side isn’t that clean, now, we take what we want from the messages these sides send us…And i personally decided not to take the Extremes ( Diabolizations, etc…) I decided to believe what i have seen with my own eyes …. all the rest, it deserves a lot of thinking! Why is it easier to believe israel when it says ” we will lock you up , SEGUER! ” than when it says ” WE WILL REMOVE ROADBLOCKS” ? Why is it easier to you to believe the Palestinian Authority when it says ” I don’t want to recognize israel” than when it says ” I WANT PEACE WITH ALL MY NEIGHBOURS” or ” I WANT TO STOP THE ANARCHY” ….

that’s why we need trust building, i don’t trust your side , you don’t trust mine, no matter what i will tell you you won’t trust my side and no matter wht you tell me,I won’t trust yours ! the day both sides will have Leaders who will build trust, we will trust each other again, but till now, our leaders are not building anything, they are kind of locked up in the turmoil of these easy images of ” the other side is bad, i am good” ….

But meanwhile, i think that it’s very important to build , on both sides, a social group that is tottally pacified and tottally demilitarized … I personally will never hold a gun , therefor i will never shoot at anyone …. I only want to talk and to be constuctive …

the Ramzites and the Tsedekites who used to be cousins in 2500 BC

Long lost family reunion

Ramzi, I think the Raccoon is right. Too many stories from soldiers that were utterly disappointed when month long joint relations with their palestinian counterparts suddenly had them being shot at. But obviously if you have another version of it, please tell it so this won’t look so black/white anymore. For me, at this given moment, I have to agree with the Raccoon about it, given that I heard many personal stories from guys having served together with their palestinian collegues that give exactly the same account.

On the other hand, maybe Raccoon, you should also look at stories like
http://www.geocities.com/lawrenceofcyberia/palbios/pa13000.html

Read about Ashraf:

In the Oslo years, Ashraf was initially optimistic that things would get better. When he was old enough, he joined the Palestinian police, but he was quickly disillusioned as he found himself providing security for an Israeli occupation that was not ending, but deepening. Land belonging to Ashraf’s grandfather was confiscated by Israel for settlement expansion. As a Palestinian policeman, Ashraf was required to provide protection for the Israeli settlers living on the land expropriated from his grandfather….

Got my point?

Ramzi -

Yes, I am talking about the year 2000, unless my memory fails me, right before the Second Intifada. To be more specific, the half a year or so of “peace” – we were no longer in Lebanon and the shit didn’t hit the fan in PA yet.

Yes, it was the same guys we patrolled with who shot at us. Khaled in particular is a guy I’ll not forget in a hurry – he spoke perfect Hebrew, was from Gaza orginally, from a family of mariners. Had a seaman’s tattoo on his left hand. He was the commander on the Palestinian side, and we spoke often about stuff. A nice enough guy, even if he was a complete psychopath.

I don’t know whether he was shooting at a raccoon or at a soldier, but it doesn’t matter. I was both – a soldier and a Raccoon. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Yes, it was our Palestinian colleaugues who fired the first shots. It began with Molotovs thrown at the DCO combined with ambushes, and proceeded to become a complete breakdown of order and civility.

I do not know which words of the Israeli government you believe; but I know that I cannot believe PA speaking of peace when I see the constant demonization of my people by PA official media and educational institution, see the as-yet-unremoved (despite promises) clauses calling for the destruction of Israel in PA manifesto, hear the words of hatred spoken in Arabic clashing with the words of peace spoken in English…

Tsedek -

You gave the link about this terrorist child-molesting hag before.

And about Ashraf’s perspective:
How do you think the soldiers and policemen evacuating the settlements felt? How do you think we felt, when we were protecting Palestinians who most probably would genocide us if they only could? Protecting the descendants of people who tried to genocide us more than once? How do you think our soldiers feel in Hebron, protecting the descendants of a lynch mob who slaughtered the Jewish population of Hebron, living on the land that was Jewish?

Do you see us becoming terrorists? No. This is a pathetic excuse for monstrousity. Got MY point?

Well The Raccoon,

I am not an apologist, i won’t start saying” What they did is justified” , but be sure that just as you dont trust my side , i dont trust yours! It’s as easy as that!

Now, to the Story of Raccoon or Soldier :
You know what happened to me three Times ?

One time, i was trying to cross a checkpoint, to go to Ramallah, on that checkpoint, i met a Soldier , a young guy who used to be my friend a Year Earlier, i slept at his place in Hertzelia, Assaf was his name… he was in Uniform.. he wasn’t Assaf anymore, yet i was Ramzi…you know what Assaf did to me that day ? He recognized me, he was very very dry while talking to me, he called me by my name, he asked me to go home… I said ” Assaf, i have to go to Ramallah, there isn’t any reason to ask me to go home… ” he looked at me and said ” I am not Assaf now, now i am a soldier”. I tried to reason with him , he ended up pushing me away with his gun and yelling at me…. I went home but i held my phone, called his number, and left him a message saying ” Assaf, it’s Ramzi…you changed…if you believe that you didn’t change, call me back…” He never called back…

You know what happened with that assaf when i was in Hertzelia ? we talked all night long! and i asked him ” If you were a Soldier on a checkpoint, would you treat me well ?” his answer was ” oh..SURE RAMZI ! what a question! you are a FRIEND! you are good! ”

Story number one : Conclusion : when you are wearing a Uniform, you are not you, you are the uniform…

I met a girl , she was the daughter of the Israeli Ambassador to Canada … this girl used to be lovely, she was a Crazy Pro Peace activist…. when she came back to Israel, she was about to join the Army, i once went for a coffee with her somewhere around my home…She entered the territories many times with me , she loved people there …. she never stopped saying it, One day, The Army was just one month away… She called me and was like ” Ramzi, i went to my Army preparation class today, and i think that by next week we have to stop talking…otherwise, all my future will have a huge question mark….We are not allowed to befriend palestinians, not now at least…” i tried to understand why, but the girl was tooo scared to explain…this was the last time we talked, i didn’t want to harm her! …but again, i lost another friend … This girl is a Spokesperson for the army today… and she is not a peace activist anymore….. she gave up! ( a year earlier, she managed to invite israelis and palestinians to a peace camp in Canada…)

Story number 3 : The Family friend, a Big big big General in the Israeli Army … Very BIG …he used to be a Good friend of my family, one day he left us a letter on the door step saying ” For some security reasons, i will have to stop calling you and i will not visit you anymore…i’m really sorry and i hope that this will end soon. ” signed Y.T.S. ,we got the letter in 2003 and this never ended….

So The Raccoon…As you can see, the common point between all these stories is the uniform! The Uniforms that Forces people to be what they are not, to be what a person higher than them wants them to be… And this is the SAD thing about army!

Ramzi,

Your assessment is correct. One’s personal characteristics and values seem to become lost or perhaps absorbed into a larger reality when clothed in a uniform. The uniform takes on a life of its own, expressing through its wearer what the uniform itself represents. I don’t mean only an army uniform, but any kind of official uniform seems to wreak this kind of transformation on the wearer. As for the observer, the civilian not wearing a uniform, he/she sees the person in the uniform as representing an official function first, person second.

I’m kind of interested in the second of your three instances in explaining the experiences you’ve had with individuals whom you felt you knew well and trusted on a one-to-one, interpersonal manner, all of whom became irreversibly altered in personality once they were absorbed into an official arm of a defence force, the IDF.

The young woman of whom you speak took the initiative, along with two other young women of Middle Eastern origin, one a Lebanese, I believe, the other Jordanian (perhaps some other country), all three of them attending an elite private school for the offspring of diplomats and local socialites. The three young women became involved with one another for the purpose of establishing friendly relations in defiance of their respective countries’ views of one another. They became involved in a local movement to bring understanding to bear between young people representing these disparate countries, and also, as you mentioned brought young people from Israel along with Arab countries to Canada to share in ‘peace camp’ activities in an attempt to get to know one another. Much was made of the involvement of the young woman you mentioned, daughter of the-then ambassador of Israel to Canada, since replaced.

What to make of your description of your aborted friendship? Along with your other examples, it’s a frustrating story of stupidity, of official manipulation, of ensuring that divisions occur and insecurities result. It’s bafflingly counter-productive and dreadfully disheartening.

Ramzi – about the first story – I think I can understand both of you.
Allow me to imagine what happened (mainly from his perspective)-
Your friend had his orders. Letting you pass would have probably gotten him into military prison. He tried to explain to you that not letting you pass has nothing to do with your friendship.
You weren’t able to accept it, knowing that you did nothing wrong, and that your friend knows it too.
He felt offended that you insisted on playing the ‘personal card’ even though he explained to you that it’s not personal, knowing that if you keep it personal, it would hurt (or ruin) your friendship.
I guess that when you called him he was ashamed, because he knew he hurt you even though he didn’t want to, and didn’t know if you’re calling him as a friend, or as the soldier that didn’t let you pass.

With that in mind – (maybe The Racoon can relate) – Imagine what it feels when the people you become friends with, and used to patrol together when both of you in uniforms, later take down their uniforms and attack you.

Well Omeran ,

it’s the ” You” after “attack” that i’m trying to explain! They don’t shoot at you, they shoot at your uniform, at the meaning this uniform holds! Think about it, these people didn’t shoot out of nowhere , i don’t know what happened exactly, but there is an event that made them Shoot , that made them resort to violence against that uniform The Raccoon was wearing! Never listen to the story from one side and believe everything, Most of the things you will hear are Perceptions…. Most people have no idea about why they are victims of attacks( whether from one side or the other), most people forget that they are Actors too!

I’m 100% sure that the Raccoon isn’t a ruthless guy who wants to kill and i’m sure too that the Khaled he is talking about isn’t ruthless either… They both are individuals, who happened to be under a uniform, in a context that is far away from being the easiest… This is the story of all wars! Soldiers who find themselves locked up in a turmoil become victims of those who sit in the big offices… whether the offices are located in Washington, Berlin, in Paris, in Tel Aviv, in Jerusalem, in Ramallah…the little soldiers on the ground are the first to get attacked , and by definition, a soldier isn’t a civilian, therefor, he becomes a legitimate Target because he represents the uniform he is wearing….!

Ramzi – and here you are making my original point. All the words that pass between us… what will be their meaning and effect when circumstances’ll change?

We are not who we are. You are not a Hunam and I am not a Raccoon. Do you know the story about the German woman who sent her own daughter to a concentration camp in WW2… because her daughter’s father was a Jew, and therefore her daughter was a Jew as well?

Well ,

Raccoon my friend, i am not explaining your point that i don’t agree with, i am just explaining that when you wear a uniform, you are not yourself….

I believe that i personally reached a point where the religion of my human fellows as well as the colour of their Skin or their nationality doesnt mean that much… it’s what they say that counts! Nevertheless, What they say can always be questionned by the Uniform that will class them socially…It’s a question of perception! BUT, where i tottally oppose ( but respect) your opinion , it’s when you say that there is no need to do anything because everything is already determined and nothing will change. The History of humanity always prooved that people change, to the better or the to the worse, But they change! I repeat, i am a humanist, i trust my fellow humans, eventhough the Human race commited digusting crimes, that same human race fought against disgusting crimes as well…

We are not in 1938 , we are not in an Era were all the social norms changed, we are in the Modern Times. To those who strongly believe that history repeats itself, i say , history never repeated itself, but humans always explained the present by using the past, it’s much easier than using the future to explain what is happening today… So allow me to say that , the story of the german woman you are talking about is much less likely to happen today, at least in the world we call ” the Western world”. Yes, there are atrocities, there are really disgusting things, but much less than before, humanity is advancing on everything, there is no reason that humanity doesn’t advance when it comes to our conflict! … All the words we are saying today will have a Meaning tomorrow! A Positive one! We can build and shape our future….

It’s really sad to see that you went through difficult times while serving in the army , i won’t sympathize with you on this matter because i am currently talking with the Raccoon without the Uniform, i wouldn’t want to talk to the one wearing the uniform, much less while holding a gun, and as long as you are not wearing a uniform, we are on equal grounds, we are both individuals, and what opposes us are our social worlds and our national beliefs… Two things that we can discuss without killing each other as long as we are indiviuals…..

The decision to change or not with the circumstances is ours! I can tell you and promise you from now, and remember my words : I WON’T CHANGE! I can’t be braver than those who loose their children and yet, seek to establish contact with the other side for the sake of PEACE, or braver than the Israeli soldiers who decided to talk to those who they used to shoot at and who used to shoot at them from the Palestinian Side! These soldiers took off their uniforms for these encounters, and those on the other side threw away their guns and shaked the hands of their enemies! They ended up becoming Friends! Many wonderful stories happened lately….It’s just that it takes one second of sad events to make everyone forget everything! Not mentionning that the political echelon isn’t interested in anything concrete nowadays…we are not forced to follow their path, which according to me is a complete failiur…on both sides!!

Ramzi – when you say so clearly that you won’t change – aren’t you closing yourself to ideas and possibilities?
What’s the purpose of a dialog if one doesn’t even consider changing his mind?

Omeran,

I think that you didn’t understand what i meant by ” I WON’T CHANGE” ….

The Raccoon said :

“Ramzi – and here you are making my original point. All the words that pass between us… what will be their meaning and effect when circumstances’ll change?”

And i replied saying that :

I personally won’t change my mind and turn against you people, i won’t hate you, i won’t shoot at you! On the contrary! I will keep trying to talk, to reason! That’s what i meant by not changing! ( Changing to the Negative that is)…. i hope that this answer is clearer…. Omeran, read well my comments and his comments, you will understand better…

Hmm, that does make a bit more sense in that context.
Change is good, if it’s for the better. Too bad ‘better’ is so obscure sometimes.

Do you see us becoming terrorists? No. This is a pathetic excuse for monstrousity. Got MY point?

Raccoon

you know, I often wonder if we would be indoctrinated with the same kind of agressiveness all our lives that the Palestinian state institutions are propagandizing to their people, if we really wouldn’t become terrorists (especially if the deed would be made out to be a heroic one by those same government institutions). “They” say from the lechie etc. that they were also terrorists – and that situation dealt with land to live on as well…

Besides (although I know the Israeli government hopelessly failed here) I doubt the Palestinian family who saw their land being dispossessed got any restitution at all as was promised to the Gaza settlers when their home and employment facilities were taken for them.

Also, call me naive but, I don’t think that we from childhood see as much death and destruction around us as do the Palestinians. I truly think that has a major impact on (how shall I call it?) their ‘nerves’ by which you can receive a totally different perspective on what is ‘wrong’ and ‘right’.

I know you differ from my views, I’m only looking out for understanding since I believe that understanding at this specific subject (the cause why things can go wrong, taking into account that we are all human beings after all and never say never) will create a far more solid path for improvement of the situation than the empty, human feelings overlooking, path of politics.

This said. I still cannot get the picture out of my head of the crows lynching the two soldiers at the square near the police station in Ramallah. And, I think I never will.

Sorry to go back to the previous subject, but I have to add my understanding of the terms “Arab” and “Jewish”.
Calling Mizrahi (Hebrew: Eastern) Jews “Arab Jews” is incorrect because the word “Arab” firstly defines an ethnic group, and only secondly the culture that derives from it; the division of Jews into the sub-categories Ashkenazim, Mizrahim, and Sephardim is also ethnic, so that would immediately create a useless oxymoron. As someone here already said, a person’s nationality can be Arabian if they live in a state mostly inhabited by Arabs (”Arabia” is simply the most widely used national term) but as long as a community keeps to itself (as all Jewish communities have throughout the years) you can’t deny its unique ethnicity, irrespective of geography. It would be ridiculous to call a person of Jewish ethnicity “Arab” just as it would have been if Arab Israelis assumed the Jewish ethnicity simply for living in the “Jewish state” with its mainly Jewish culture and mainly Jewish inhabitants. Plus, the term excludes the Iranians, Yemenites, and Kurds (half Kurdish, quarter Hungarian, quarter French, myself).
The problem with the much needed differentiation of the ethnic and religious meanings of the word “Jewish” is that Judaism is based on the idea that God gave the Torah to a specific ethnic group and made them his “chosen people”. So, if you ask a Rabbi, he will probably tell you that by being ethnically Jewish, God gave you this gift that even you don’t have the right to give up. On the other hand, if you do “choose” to respectfully waive this gift, why the hell should you care about what a Rabbi has to say? Hence the confusion.
About the term “Sephardic” – it’s become completely meshed in the term “Mizrahi”, but it actually comes from the Hebrew word for Spanish and is meant the describe the Jews of Latin countries.

Well Tsedek,

There are many pictures i can’t get out my head! Pictures of israeli soliers breaking bones of palestinians, israeli soldiers killing and shooting and insulting ….. but what’s the use of such pictures ? This is the past… Now we must look towards a better future …. and to Raccoon’s ” Do you see us becoming terrorists” …What you should understand is that in our eyes, your soldiers are Terrorists… i didn’t say this earlier, but that’s how we see your army , your government! just as you percieve as us such, we see you as terrorists! that’s the effect of propaganda on both sides! BOTH SIDES…. I repeat : BOTH SIDES! it takes two to tango !

in our eyes, your soldiers are Terrorists

I know. That’s why this talking talking talking is so BADLY needed. One might never understand the view of the other, but at least can give a try to understand the feelings of one another. That’s a good beginning, no?

Those pictures were on tv when two Palestinian children had spent the night at my place, Ramzi -young children, small. I had to go to the neighbors to watch it unfolding because I felt I could obviously not upset them.

These pictures have a ’special’ meaning for me. That’s why I mentioned it.

Yes Tsedek,

I understand! I totally understand! These pictures were horrible! That same day in the early morning children on the Streets of Ramallah witnessed the Assassination of Abu Ali Mustapha too, they witnessed the bombing of the Ramallah Police Station…. These two soldiers were at the wrong place at the wrong time between the wrong people! It’s disgusting , disgusting disgusting! all of this second intifada had disgusting pictures! We all lived horrible moments, doesn’t matter who was “closer” to the event! Maybe this is a common point between all of us … now is the time to look forward… FORWARD! Far away! The Future….we can’t forget the past, but let’s learn from it, let’s say ” NEVER AGAIN”! It hurts me to read in the news headlines that ” Israelis entered the westbank an went out unharmed” as if all the israelis who enter the westbank go out dead…it happened What, 3 or 4 , 5 6 times ? Two times those harmed were soldiers and one third time, the guy was some israeli Ex-official ….he got realeased quite quickly….. But honestly, not stopping to mention that those who enter the westbank go out unharmed is useless! For the last 3 years, each time someone entered the Westbank , he/she went out unharmed! You don’t know the number of jewish israelis i see in the Westbank…. Daily! They never got harmed and they still enter, without any special permits or anything …. See? That’s propaganda too, the fact that it’s soooo important to say that an israeli entered and went out unharmed makes all israelis believe what they are requested to believe, meaning that WOW! HE WAS LUCKY! He went through a near death experience!…isn’t this propaganda ? !

I think you’re wrong about Abu Ali Mustapha Ramzi, that was in August and the lynching of the soldiers in October (as far as I can remember). But most certainly the city had witnessed the killings of over 100 people and children amongst them (I checked with google to be sure my memory of that time is still functioning properly).
Anway in order to let something stop one has to look at oneself first, and unfortunately I find the Palestinians as well as the Israeli’s reluctant to do so. (Both ‘pretend’ to go till a certain level of self-criticism but are unwilling to go all the way)

Tsedek,

Yes, i don’t remember who got assasinated that day, but something major happened, i thought it was Abu Ali Mustapha…but no, i retract this info… But it’s all the same! I agree with you, one has to do his own laundry before doign the laundry of the neighbours ….. But you know what ? I’m crossing my fingers for the future…. I don’t think that we have any other choice!

Ramzi -

Do you honestly compare the hysterical Israeli media to the Palestinian propaganda machine?
Do you honestly compare IDF soldiers to Hamas terrorists?

Honestly?

I think we’re getting to the bottom line question again, ain’t we?

The Raccoon,

I’m sorry to shock you, but we are 4 milions to believe that the IDF are terrorists …. that they have nothing to do in our territories, and that your media is Sick …… i’m more open , so i’m adding that your media is as sick as ours and your Army is as sick as our militants, but more organized and more powerful i must say…! You will not admit it, but one day, you will eventually have to admit it….It takes two to tango Raccoon! Two…. You and Us! for the better or the worse… Someone once asked me to stop being ” so Palestinian-centered” …. i’m trying , that’s why i’m saying that most of the conflict over here is a Matter of Perception! We believe stuff and you believe stuff….no one of us knows anything..we just believe that we know…. Once we all admit this, we will be on the good path… Meawhile, i prefer to listen to everything everyone has to say here ( eventhough sometimes it’s like replaying an Old LP disc…it’s always the same story) but i believe that at some point, we will eventually understand much of the mechanisms of what we are going through …. all of us!

The first thing i can see now is that : it’s a war between Good and Good! … It would have been much easier if it was a Good against Bad classical case… but no, it’s something between good and good that’s why it’s very hard to find an easy solution! Again Raccoon, for the Google time ( where google is a number with 12 Zeros ….) , i say, the only way is TALKING on the official levels! Talking talking talking! I’d even suggest that Olmert and Abbas live together for a month…

Ramzi…

4 million people can believe anything they want. Hunams are extremely foolish creatures.

I don’t want to explain yet again why there is no equivalence at all. That would probably be pointless.

And this is not a war between bad and good or good and good or bad and bad. This is a war between hunams.

Exactly,

It’s a War between social beings, so the conflict is as diverse as our societies…anyways, it’s not the perceptions that we must fight, who cares about who is more disgusting than the other ? I really don’t anymore…The only thing i care about is how to make us all as less disgusting as possible…. And i believe that the only way to do this is to persuade everything to take his responsibilities and to TALK! Talk talk talk…for the sake of this generation and all the generations to come…. War isn’t an acceptable solution

i mean , EVERYONE…not everything ( it’s not fun to talk to objects)

Ramzi -

Bro, if I change my perceptions of, say, Hamas, and start believing that they’re nice people who wish me no harm… well, they’ll probably just kill me.

Ach, bugger it.

you are putting your finger on the issue Raccoon, I think that Hamas is probably thinking the same thing…i’m not going to take their defense, but that’s probably the case..Hamas or not, we always have this reaction , i’m not shocked, it’s a Conflict and this is expected! ” Better be safe than sorry” they say….but if we follow this, we will be so safe that we’ll end up being sorry! I prefer taking some risks, i am smart enough to know that no measure is eternal, but i am smart enough too to know that nobody is taking any measures! And today, the Arab league said something very very very very interesting , they asked israel to present it’s peace proposals… Because come to think of it, the last time that israel offered something was back in 2000… nothing after ( Sharon’s government “Manifesto” was written the same way as the current hamas government’s “manifesto” , Sharon’s government said ” We will try to respect past agreements signed with those around us, and we will judge our neighbours according to their actions” Hamas is currently saying the same thing, this attitude is responsible for the current stagnation in the political process! From that time , israel presented Nothing official, only defiance….! The Arabs presented their innitiative, Some official palestinians presented the geneva intiative, The Quartet presented the Road Map , The UN presented some resolutions, Some countries proposed to invite both sides to an international summit , syria offered to talk about peace….. The only side who didn’t offer anything and who refused alllllll offers is israel so i really believe that now is the time to stop whinning and saying that there is no partner, present something official and lets hit the road towards something! Saying ” They will kill me” and ” i have no partner” didn’t work!

According to my interpretation of everything happening lately : Israel never had that many partners in the region…. There is Abbas, Assad( you can question him as much as you want, but at least him, he is not saying ” i don’t want to talk” ) , there is Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Qatar , UAE…. and some others who prefered to remain silent for the moment! SO now, THERE ARE A LOT OF PARTNERS ! Present your plans and your intentions before it’s too late! the EU and the USA are negotiating a changement in the USA’s policy in the region , Assad is on European TV screens daily preaching for peace with everyone, and trust me, he is gaining momentum… Lebanon is interesting everyone….The USA has to do something in order to make Iraq’s fiasco look healthier ( talking to syria is another way of doing it), The boycott of the Palestinian Authority is falling slowly but surely , The arab league is getting more ” Intelligent” and is marketting it’s causes quite well with new arguments while israel is using the same old rhethoric… I don’t know who is really loosing here, is it the Israeli PR or the Israeli government ? Or maybe both ? It’s time to MOVE ON The Raccoon! Nobody want’s to kill you or to ” Genocide” you…now more than ever , you have a chance to have peace with everyone , if i was in your place, i’d run for it! And if it fails, at least, i will say ” I tried”… The Ball is in your court, deeply inside your court…

I recommend this article : http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/839634.html

I think that Hamas is probably thinking the same thing

strange thing here

I wrote a comment and all it took was the quote above -

some bug maybe, yeali?

anyway what i wrote is

ramzi, are they?

to deny one’s existence is not the same as to defy one’s existence….

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