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I have been home sick all day and if I hadn’t been sick already I would have become so watching this unfold. Yes, it looks like Gaza has pretty much been overthrown by Hamas. There are nerve-wracking reports coming from the West Bank (Dalia please set my nerves at ease and say it isn’t so!) that the violence may be spreading into the West Bank as well. Hamas doesn’t have the man-power in the West Bank though and we do still have some military presence there that may be keeping a lid on things by dent of simply being there. You get no flack from this side as far as Egypt going in –from our vantage it would be a g-dsend and I think from the vantage of many people stuck in Gaza. I did a post today about the number of pleas being written by Palestinians in Gaza to our government to come in and help them in the face of this but that is very much not on the table right now and you could have knocked me down with a feather when I read of it.

I really don’t know what this is going to mean for the people of Gaza, for us, the West Bank, Jordan, Egypt and even Lebanon. I think the events in Gaza are tied in no small way to what is occurring in Lebanon –the same people are behind it, it seems to me. It doesn’t look good, I can say that much.

You’re right. The same people are behind it (the same people that some people insist on “negotiating” with, i might add).

I don’t think Israel should go in, pleas or not. Like it or not, Israel is currently “the enemy” of the Palestinian people (I speak purely from a perception point of view). You don’t want the trouble that comes with that. And you won’t be celebrated as liberators, you’ll be reviled as occupiers.

But I am of the opinion now (and I know I’m being a bit of a hypocrite here, considering what is happening in my own country) that the Gaza palestinians have proven to the world that they are not yet capable of governing themselves, hence the next logical step (one that I am fond of, even though it is undemocratic): Enforce peace by having Egypt (the logical candidate, with full UN backing) occupy and repress (yes, repress!) until the violence is at an end, and the perpetrators are dead, arrested, or neutralized. Then allow the palestinian people who actually want to live in peace, in a functional and civilized country, a referendum to start putting together their state institutions.

This is very discouraging and scary news coming out of Gaza.
No, Israel should avoid going in, even to help, as this may not be perceived as help. It may make things worse. I agree that Egypt would be the logical candidate to lend assistance in this case. At least, it seems so, but I would like to hear what Ramzi and Dalia think–they are both much better informed.
Dalia, please let us know that you are safe.
Ramzi, please give us an update on your family’s situation and their security.
I know that I don’t have to tell you that I hope that you and your families are safe and secure.

Regarding:
Enforce peace by having Egypt (the logical candidate, with full UN backing) occupy and repress (yes, repress!) until the violence is at an end, and the perpetrators are dead, arrested, or neutralized. Then allow the palestinian people who actually want to live in peace, in a functional and civilized country, a referendum to start putting together their state institutions.

Question:
But didn’t the Palestinians already have a referendum in which Hamas was elected to start putting together their state institutions? Perhaps it can be argued that the people did not elect them to begin shooting at other Palestinians in hospitals, peace rallys, and office places, but they did vote Hamas in, didn’t they?

By the way, I agree with the idea of Egypt taking over Gaza, but let’s be realistic regarding the desires of the people living there. I expect that a referendum would result once again in a victory for Hamas. It looks to me like the people of Gaza largely support Hamas, and I suppose this means they support the Hamas position regarding the destruction of Israel.

If that is the case, then either some other organization comes in and forcibly represses the will of the people, or you have to give the people the war they want. Unfortunately, I don’t think Gaza will rest until they have their war with Israel and (1) one side wins, (2) one side loses, and (3) both sides agree on which is which.

BV, while I am tempted to agree with you, there are some factors that probably bear discussion.

The mystique of Egyptian power has long since worn off in Gaza. The words of Omar Suleiman no longer hold any weight with HAMAS. Not even the wishes of the Saudi king, once a HAMAS patron, move the HAMAS leadership.

So if the Egyptians went into Gaza in force, they would need to squash HAMAS like a bug, very quickly. A prolonged conflict would be a disaster for Egypt. The Egyptian security apparatus cannot afford to look weak in front of the Muslim Brotherhood, or Mubarak would risk enormous unrest at home. Also, Egypt does not want to appear (at home or abroad) to be serving Israel’s interests arresting Palestinians in order to keep Gaza quiet; since it has refused to moderate the virulent anti-Israel propaganda that fills Egyptian media, the government would find it impossible to explain why it was “submitting to the Zionists” or “helping the Zionists oppress the Palestinians.” Thus, a very rapid takeover and complete suppression of HAMAS would be essential, and thus Egypt would need to employ overwhelming force immediately.

However, the Israel-Egypt peace treaty limits the size and strength of the Egyptian military presence in Sinai and along the Egyptian-Israeli border (including the Gaza-Egypt border). There are very good reasons for this; because heavy Egyptian forces are positioned too far back to pose an immediate threat to Israel, Israel can afford to breathe rather than watching tensely for a sudden Egyptian attack, and Egypt can consequently afford to breathe rather than watching tensely for an Israeli preemptive strike.* Consequently, the danger of an accidental war or a preemptive strike by either side is relatively low. That’s a good thing.

Egypt and Israel can, by mutual agreement, raise these force limits, and last year, in fact, Israel signed off on an increase in the Egyptian levels specifically intended to help Egypt police the Gaza border more effectively. However, an Egyptian build-up (particularly by armored forces) next door to Ashkelon would make Israel extremely nervous, so Israel won’t raise the limit very far.

Mubarak’s regime, as nasty as it is in many ways, is more responsible than a fanatical Islamist state. If a Muslim Brotherhood-inspired coup were to overthrow the current regime, Egypt’s heavily-armed military would become an immediate existential danger to Israel, and tensions would immediately become explosive. Because it needs time to react to such a scenario, Israel cannot afford to allow heavy concentrations of Egyptian forces along its border. And unfortunately, Egyptian intervention in Gaza is an event that could well trigger instability in Egypt.

Instead, Olmert is calling for European intervention. Olmert is, of course, a moron.

The Europeans would be completely useless. I’m really tempted to say “let the Egyptians go in” because I am fairly sure that an Arab army could go in and grind HAMAS into mush, and nobody would care, and at this point, any human rights violations that the Egyptians might commit would pale in comparison to what Gazans can expect from being controlled by a Syrian-controlled Islamist terror group that uses hospitals as firing platforms, stores weapons in mosques and has used child soldiers to shield gunmen and place explosives since its inception. But I can’t say that I would be comfortable with the resulting deployment of Egyptian forces.

Oh, and technically, Egypt going into Gaza would abrogate the Israel-Egypt treaty; the 2 governments would need to renegotiate the section of the treaty dealing with the Territories before they would be willing to sign off on that. In a sensitive situation, good rules are essential in order to prevent mistakes.

* Additional random comments about the force limits in the Israel-Egypt peace treaty:

1. The Egypt-Israel treaty also limits Israeli forces on the Egyptian border; the Israeli limited-force zone is proportionate to Israel’s much narrower strategic depth, and is consequently narrower than the limited-force zone on the Egyptian side. See the map below.

2. You can find the text of the treaty at the Israel MFA site, and the map referred to in the treaty annex is here:

http://www.army.mil/cmh/books/DAHSUM/1984/images/map1.jpg

3. The Israel-Jordan treaty does not contain any such force limitations on either side, which probably reflects both Israel’s trust for the late King Hussein and Jordan’s much less offensive military posture.

I did say that Egypt should squash Hamas like a bug (albeit in different words). So yes, I agree. My words were, in fact: REPRESS.
This is no peacekeeping mission (if there were one). This would be a full scale Egyptian invasion of Gaza. A forcible pacification. Breaking necks and cracking skulls.
Which is why I said this comment would get me some flack (from Ramzi, probably).

Mind, you, Israel would obviously have to be on board with Egypt going in that way (which is to address all your fears about the treaty being broken and troop levels, and whatnot).

I’m no fan of Mubarak or of autocratic regimes. But as you say, i’ll take that over the suicidal and irresponsible anarchy in Gaza. Not just for my sake, or Israel’s sake, but for the Palestinian population’s sake as well.

Just today, a bunch of fed up Palestinians marched in Gaza to demand an end to the hostilities. They got fired at by Hamas gunmen. 2 were killed.
I have a feeling, more and more of the population in Gaza would WELCOME anyone who came in and crushed Hamas into oblivion.
I also bet you that a good 90% of the Gaza population REALLY regrets having voted for Hamas. They thought they were sending Fatah a message of reform. They didn’t think they’d get death and chaos as a result. And they cannot blame Israel for this one (although some will try).

What is going on in Gaza is what was expected ! Exactly what was expected…. Hamas is controling every Cm of Gaza, but that’s not a big deal, they don’t know what they have done to themselves, they have signed their death sentence with their own hands..Fatah isn’t disappearing, it’s very strong in the West Bank, it never was strong in Gaza after the intifada.
Yesterday, i was talking to a Fatah parliement member who told me that “he believes” that all of what is happening are preparations for a confederation with Jordan! Nobody is stopping the fighting in Gaza because everyone is interested in seeing a total collapse of the old system, Abbas is set to anounce the dissolution of the Government today and he is also set to declare a state of Emergency, which means that the palestinian military under his rule will have the authority to do anything , even if the cost was very high in matters of civilian lives…
Nobody mentionned the Badr brigades, but they will eventually be the ones responsible for the control of the West Bank and Egypt is expected to control Gaza at some point , the egyptian military advisor/governor who was based in Gaza 40 years ago is still based in Gaza and his role is to ” mediate”, but his original role is much bigger and wider than that, it’s just that such people arn’t very visible to the media and almost nobody knows about them, other than the Gazans and the Palestinian Authority people.

As i said before, the situation has to totally explode and it’s exploding now…

For the Badr Brigades : Here are some links :

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/25/AR2006122500173.html

our own Shifaa talks about this issue too on her blog :

shifaa.blogspot.com/2006/11/security-first.html

” Badr Brigade was one of four brigades of the Palestine Liberation Army (PLA) established by the PLO in various Arab countries (including the Ain Jalut Brigade in Egypt, the Qadissya Brigade in Iraq, the Hittin and Yarmuk Brigades in Syria, and the Badr Brigade in Jordan). Over time, however, the PLO lost control as these brigades came under the sway of their host countries”

” In an interview with the Japanese Kyodo News Agency in March 2005, Jordanian Ambassador Dr. Ma’ruf al-Bakhit discussed the Bader forces in the West Bank. “The Badr Forces are professional forces. They are Palestinians under Jordanian army supervision. We know them one by one. (But Israel) talks now about rebuilding the Palestinian police forces. Rehabilitation. Many of them were in prison or in the (PLO) factions or Aqsa Brigades, etc. Here you have a well-trained, professional army known to all. Why not utilize them? (Israel) wants us to train the Palestinian police, and we shall do it – but why not use the already existing forces or some of them? Why not have Palestinians train Palestinians? We don’t understand why certain elements in the Israeli government are against the idea. Probably they thought this is part of bringing more people to the West Bank – but we suggested that they arrive as army units without their families, if they have suspicions.” The reason given by Israelis for rejecting the idea was that it was a plot to send the “dislocated” refugees of 1967 to the West Bank. “

Sounds like Ramzi is roughly on board with my idea
Well, it’s not really MY idea, but yeah, basically, someone is gonna have to come in and pacify the territories, Egypt, Jordan…it’s all for the better.

As for Abbas dissolving government and declaring a state of emergency. I hope he does. And what’s even more so, it mirrors a post I made about Lebanon today (in reaction to yet another assassination), on another blog, that went something like this:

The time for diplomacy and sweettalk, and “letting the process run its course” has past.

I know this is a fantasy of mine, with no basis in reality, but in my world, and under the cover of this day of mourning, tomorrow morning, the following would occur:

- 4am: ISF arrests Berri, Yakan, Frangieh and all other snivelling traitors.
- 4am: the LAF moves in and secures Nahr el Bared, Ain el Hilweh and the various PFLP-GC bases.
- 5am: The LAF encircles Baabda palace, various TV stations and secures the airport.
- 6am: Saniora and the no.2 of parliament appear live from the Serail, on every media outlet and declare a state of emergency. Central Beirut us declared a martial-law zone. Demonstrators are given till noon to disperse or risk being shot on sight.
- Noon: The parliament is convened by the no.2 MP, under heavy protection from the LAF. The following announcements are made: Withdrawal from the Arab League. Severing of all ties with Syria. Both until further notice. Shebaa farms is placed under UN supervision until a referendum can be conducted on its fate. All non-state weapons are abolished (including Palestinian camps and the “resistance”). A date is set for presidential elections ASAP. Parliament is given until the end of the year to produce a new electoral law.

Game over.

(I can dream, can’t i?)

Oh, yes, I definitely got your points.

You probably won’t get any flak from known Fatah supporters in Gaza. Half of them are probably trying to figure out how to smuggle their families out of the Strip before they are taken hostage or massacred. The rest of Gaza no doubt just wants this all to be over, without caring who wins, because caring who wins could get them killed.

If the following Ali Waked article is accurate, the PA in its current form is just about finished. It’s not clear what will replace it:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3412610,00.html

Unfortunately, what has happened to the Palestinians is the same thing that always happens to them: they let a bunch of extremist murderers speak for them, deliberately ignoring clear and unmistakable evidence that these men have no conscience and no limits. And guys like that have no “off” switch; everything they did to Israelis last year, they will do to their own people today:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/06/13/wgaza113.xml

“They’re firing at us, firing RPGs, firing mortars. We’re not Jews,” the brother of Jamal Abu Jediyan, a Fatah commander, pleaded during a live telephone conversation with a Palestinian radio station.

Minutes later both men were dragged into the streets and riddled with bullets.

Palestinian society as a whole has long accepted that murdering Jews is okay. It’s a very short stretch from HAMAS murdering Jews to HAMAS murdering Palestinians. Until Palestinians as a people realize that and reject terrorism, this will happen again and again, and each time it will get worse.

2 weeks ago, when Ramzi warned us that this was coming, I didn’t believe HAMAS would go this far, this openly. But he was 100% right.

Zvi -

“Until Palestinians as a people realize that and reject terrorism, this will happen again and again, and each time it will get worse.”

I have a strange feeling that this will happen right about when an alabaster dog chases an asbestos cat through hell.

A much more likely scenario would be a new Somalia or Afghanistan. Hey, Gaza already is New Mogadishu.

There is a certain limit beyond which a group’s insanity becomes incurable. And Palestinians have crossed this limit many, many years ago.

Ramzi,

I do not know if it is possible to eradicate Hamas. Sure, Israel tried for a while. I beleive that any attempt to do so, probably will radicalize a bigger portion of the Palestinian people to join Hamas. Regarding the Egyptians, I bet on my family farm if they will send forces to Gaza. Nobody wants to be there not now. So, I agree with Zvi on this. The only thing that Abbas can do is to dissolute the Hamas-led government which continued to recieve financal aid from Arab nations and others humantiarian international aid, and clean the West Bank from Hamas military presence and let Hamas dies financially.
Today, the EU is suspending their humanitarian aid til another notice. Unfortunately, there are regional forces in the area that are interested and invested in Hamas success; particularly Iran which will continue to provide military and financial help to Hamas. I am not worried about the Syrians, who care less and despise the radical element in Islam, their alliance with Hamas comes out of convience. In other words, only economic success in the WB will change attitude in Gaza. But for now Gaza is hopeless case and things will continue to get worse. Regarding the confederation option, it is obviously unlikely in the short-term and defintely will not include Gaza if it ever happened.

BV –now that does sound like a plan!

As far as Gaza goes, no I don’t see Jordan ever being willing to take control over it. Egypt may end up being the only option in the long run however, as, obviously Gaza cannot survive long-term on its own. I’m assuming, but one should never assume too much, that it is going to be quite isolated and cut-off.

I wouldn’t hold my breath too long on the Europeans not giving Hamas aid, however. Norway for instance committed to send 100 million dollars directly to the Hamas-run government just last month. And certainly there is going to be a huge humanitarian crisis that is going to unfold there. You’ve got millions of people with no means of supporting themselves, with infrastructure and hospitals seriously damaged from the fighting this past month, and being run by homicidal maniacs. Money that does make its way there will be spent, as was the previous money that got into Hamas hands, on getting bigger and better weapons.

If Egypt doesn’t at some point step in, then I’m afraid the Raccoon’s predictions are the ones likely to come true.

Abbas just disbanded the government, announced the State of Emergency ( HUGE SIGNIFICANCE) and called for early elections as soon possible….

as for the confederation, I have to tell you that now, from official sources, i have confirmations! It’s ready… They are building roads connecting the WestBank to Jordan PLUS … i recieved news from a source in a Westbank municipality about what is happening and they apparently recieved orders to clean the grounds for the arrival of the Badr Brigades ( under jordanian rule) …. You can’t possibily imagine what is happening over here! I am seeing it and not believing it ….

Now, i don’t have any doubt left about what will happen in the next few months …. and remember my words : The next few months will be crucial and we will all see things we have never seen before …. REMEMBER MY WORDS ….

As for Gaza…it will be Egypt’s business from now on … Pre 1967 coming back ? I don’t know …but it looks much like it! Nobody can wait anymore and everything can happen in hours! IN HOURS… i repeat, i’m not analysing anymore, i’m just watching ….

Ramzi do post. Post this please!!!!!!! Miyad This is good news!! Important news!! People don’t always check the comments! Can I post this on my blog? Yow, yow wow!

Raccoon: I guess that goes back to BV’s point, then. Someone who isn’t poisoned needs to go in and forcibly detox the society. I guess BV’s point, and yours, is that this won’t happen without serious repression, because the society would forcibly and covertly resist all detox attempts.

Shifaa: I guess I agree here too. Mr. Abbas has provided a fig leaf that kept resources, including weapons, flowing into Gaza. Cutting off HAMAS is the only useful thing Abbas can do now.

But here is what I think will happen next.

Once it has finished gunning down Fatah members in Gaza and has achieved complete control of Gaza, HAMAS will call for a truce in the PA in order to freeze the situation and consolidate its gains. HAMAS will call for negotiations with Fatah, and Abbas will accept. Maybe there will be an exchange of hostages, mediated by one of the Sunni governments, the Arab League or the UN (any sucker who can be coaxed to participate; that government will then delude itself that it has influence and will retain an open tie with HAMAS, acting as its character witness to the world). A nice little diplomatic show will take place for the international community, in which HAMAS will try to get back Abbas as a fig leaf while controlling Gaza with an iron fist. Unless Abbas is threatened again by his own Fatah partisans, he will fall into the delusional trap of “speaking for all Palestinian people,” getting tangled up with HAMAS again rather than telling them to go to hell.

Most Gazans will worship HAMAS, because they will respect the most brutal guy on the street. And because they don’t want to be accused of being “collaborators.” Whatever the culture of Gaza once WAS, today Gaza today is Hamastan in more than just a political sense.

The Muslim Brotherhood will be strengthened in Egypt. Egypt is very pissed.

Khaled Meshaal is celebrating.

If HAMAS launches rockets, Israel should hit back very hard. But the world will come to HAMAS’s defense, because that’s the knee-jerk reaction. HAMAS can murder 20 Palestinians in cold blood – who cares? – but just let an Israeli shell be incorrectly targeted and kill a handful of Palestinians by accident… ! The UN dispatches an investigative team (one such team just reported its findings, in a grotesque travesty that says pretty much everything).

The worst immediate outcome would be for a West Bank Fatah faction angered by the defeat in Gaza to assassinate Abbas, causing Fatah to fragment into competing groups. Or for new factions to break away from Abbas and create entirely new disasters for everyone concerned. As long as HAMAS gets stuck in Gaza, everyone will keep playing stupid games. If Fatah collapses in the WB, then only Israel can hold things together, at a time when Israel needs to prepare for a war with Syria/Iran. As it always does, the world will thank Israel for doing the dirty job of arresting crews of psychopathic murderers by accusing Israel of oppressing the Palestinians.

All of which means that the world will STILL keep trying to prop up Abbas and pretend that he can negotiate meaningfully with Israel, even though he has shown over and over again that his promises are worthless because he won’t enforce them, even to save his own friends’ lives. And as long as this situation continues, Palestinian society will continue to fall apart in the WB as well, and it will be impossible for Israel to find peace partners in that mess.

I’m frustrated. Sorry.

Frustrated or not, I have watched one too many incompetent Arab “initiative” in my own country to agree with you, Zvi.

I think that is exactly what is going to happen.

This is EXACTLY why i have been repeating ad nauseam that terrorists, extremists, and the countries that support them, encoruage them and supply them should NOT be engaged.

You’re describing the exact same song and dance we’re seeing in Lebanon vis-a-vis Hezbollah and their allies.

They don’t play by any rules. They use force, terror and intimidation. And once they get what they want, they act like they’re interested in a truce. And every time, the other side, which is so afraid of war and actually holds to more civilized principles, goes “Better to talk than to fight.” and they sit down with these extremists, make concessions and some arab nation acts as a mediator and pats each other on the back.
Until the next round of violence or assassination, and the next concession…and so on.

If what Ramzi is seeing and predicting is right, then this is good news for all of us (well, us Lebanese still have our own mess to clean up).

This would be inline with my call for Egypt to “invade” Gaza.

If indeed we end up with 2 rival “Palestines”: A pro-western confederation in the WB, controlled and policed by the Badr Brigades and kept in line by Jordan, and a Hamas-controlled Gaza. I can see Egypt taking matters in hand and invading Gaza to “pacify it” (official wording).

[...] Right, Zvi has provided an alternate scenario that could unfold with the PA and he lays out just how bad it could be for us Israelis in it –I’m appending a bit of it below and you can read the rest under the comments of this post. Now, I myself am hoping that Ramzi is correct (btw he didn’t mean “roads” literally but more like we use “bridges” though slightly stronger in meaning) first because that would certainly be the best scenario all around and for everyone and secondly because he has been so incredibly right in the recent past about where things would go. On the other hand, Zvi is so incredibly knowledgeable about the ins and outs of Lebanon, Israel, Jordan, Egypt and the Palestinian Territories he simply boggles the mind. Here is what Zvi foresees: Once it has finished gunning down Fatah members in Gaza and has achieved complete control of Gaza, HAMAS will call for a truce in the PA in order to freeze the situation and consolidate its gains. HAMAS will call for negotiations with Fatah, and Abbas will accept. Maybe there will be an exchange of hostages, mediated by one of the Sunni governments, the Arab League or the UN (any sucker who can be coaxed to participate; that government will then delude itself that it has influence and will retain an open tie with HAMAS, acting as its character witness to the world). A nice little diplomatic show will take place for the international community, in which HAMAS will try to get back Abbas as a fig leaf while controlling Gaza with an iron fist. Unless Abbas is threatened again by his own Fatah partisans, he will fall into the delusional trap of “speaking for all Palestinian people,” getting tangled up with HAMAS again rather than telling them to go to hell. [...]

I don’t know that Abbas could do more than he did. Dalia and I had this conversation a few weeks ago. Abbas is in great danger himself at every moment. I am frustrated that many supporters of the Palestinian cause do not differentiate between the good Palestinian people who are caught in the middle of this conflict and those psychopathic terrorists within their midst. This goes for Hezbollah as well. How can anyone negotiate with terrorists who use force and fear against their own people as well as their enemies? Support for the terrorist groups is creating a much more dangerous crisis. I do hope that what Ramzi is predicting happens.

[...] The Hamas-Fatah civil war seems to be winding down in Gaza. Meanwhile, Palestinian and Israeli bloggers discuss the idea that the West Bank will go into confederation with Jordan; leaving Gaza to the Egyptians. [...]

BV: Yes.

Well, Haniyeh seems to be going it alone, stripped of even the poor diplomatic cover of the PA.

Abbas now needs to watch out for assassins, whether locally motivated or working for Syria/Iran.

Lynne: Unfortunately, what Abbas never has realized is that it is his failure to stand up to HAMAS time after time that has put him deeper and deeper into personal danger. The only thing more dangerous than fighting terrorists is not fighting terrorists.

I absolutely and wholeheartedly agree with your comments about HAMAS/Hizballah.

Zvi, good points. I imagine that Abbas continued to try to work with HAMAS time and again was due to the tremendous pressure being put on him from certain members of the international community–people who do not have a true understanding of the situation he has been facing. As it is, I fear for his safety now.

The only thing more dangerous than fighting terrorists is not fighting terrorists. (Zvi)

And this brings us back full circle to the whole discussion about “engaging”.
These people (and I am including Hezbollah, Hamas, The Syrian Regime, and their various proxies elsewhere) need to be crushed like bugs. There is absolutely NO benefit from appeasing, engaging or negotiating. They’re simply not wired that way.

[...] Excellent commentary also from the indispensable Good Neighbours. [...]

Because these terrrorists claim a political agenda, many people cannot see that they are simply psychotic killers, criminals that cannot be reasoned with or trusted to behave rationally or to act in good faith. They are sick, dangerous people with a distorted world view. The working definition for the emotionally disturbed students that I work with in the US is basically that they have unexpected, unusual reactions and responses to interactions with others. Terrorists and members of extremist groups fit this definition in most cases. As BV and others have said, you cannot negotiate with them at all. Period.

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