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Good!

And you did call this one a few days ago, Ramzi

Now I can only hope that PM Saniora in Lebanon can follow Abbas’ lead and take charge in that way.

Ramzi, you were 100% correct. I’m worried about the people in Gaza; can they stay out of harm’s way?

The people in Gaza…well all i can tell you is that i tried calling friends from Gaza, phones are not working over there, Jawwal ( the palestinian mobile network) is not working in Gaza either, and news coverage is very limited, no Images ( other than the ones provided by hamas)…. But i guess that it must be very very very difficult to live under these conditions! I’m crossing my fingers for their Future …

Today, i witnessed 2 arrest raids in Bethlehem… the Palestinian Army arrested many hamas members over here, and at some point, i was driving when suddenly i saw a car stopping on the other side of the road , 4 palestinian soldiers came out and ran behind a middle aged man , stopped him, apparently disarmed him , and arrested him while saying ” you chose the wrong side” !

The second arrest raid was at a Falafel and Humous restaurant … the palestinian security forces arrested two hamas men …

For the rest, i don’t know, but i am hearing occasionally some shootings here and there in bethlehem…

Nothing less than frightening. I can hardly imagine how Gazans, ordinary Palestinians feel about all of this. Not only has the lawlessness become the order of the day, but those who set themselves in the position of governance, acting in the best interests of Palestinians, avowing their sense of duty, have completely abandoned the singular purpose of responsibility.

What am I saying? Responsibility would have been to understand that the first order of business would be to find common ground between Hamas and Fatah (staring them in the face) in a way that would ultimately lead to a Palestinian State. Hamas is effectively outlawing itself in the eyes of much of the Arab world, albeit upholding the agenda of Iran and Syria.

What a tangled web. What insanity. What an example of pure, unadulterated and bloody tribalism.

Rita, hi! I don’t know that Abbas could have done more given the situation. He was himself in grave danger at every moment. I believe that he tried to do all that he could.
Ramzi! Be careful and don’t take any chances at all. I hope that you and all your family can keep clear of any danger. I keep checking the news sources, Good Neighbors, and the ME blogs at least hourly— I’m afraid of this conflict spreading to other areas and not staying confined to Gaza. Be careful!

I think it is greed and desire for personal power with a complete disregard for the welfare of the people they are representing. I don’t blame Fatah and Abbas in this, though Fatah is certainly full of greed and corruption as well, because you cannot come to agreement with people who are truly psychotic and short-sighted. That certainly describes the people running the show in Hamas (not necessarily the “leaders” –as we’ve seen with Haniyeh last summer, he had absolutely no real control over what his people on the ground were doing and finally came out and said as much).

Ramzi, I’ve heard from MANY sources in Gaza that this is very much ‘clan-related’ – (the al-masri clan, the bakr clan, etc. ) – do you think this is behind it?

I can only join in with the others here, feeling terrible for the people – yet in another downgrade spiral just when you thought it couldn’t get any worse

Tsedek, it’s really nice to see you back

Yes, It is very much Clan Related, Mafia! Hamas is a better choice for the clans in Gaza that’s why they got the support of all the little gangs here and there and that’s why Fatah lost quite fast!

Fatah in gaza means : a Possible end to all violences and a possible renewal of the peace process , which means an end to all kinds of clandestine illegal activities such as Lawlessness, Murder, Drugs, Arms…. having in mind that Hamas is totally isolated by 99% of the world, it needs the support of the clans , their first move yesterday was to set free all the prisioners in the Gaza prisons! All of them : the Killers, the rapers, the thiefs, the Corrupt, the violent, the criminals…. I wouldn’t like to take a walk in gaza’s streets! …This move was nothing but a service for the clans ! ” we supported you, now free our clan members or else… ”

As for the feeling terrible for the people part, ..what can i say ?

Abbas took the right decision yesterday, for once , i can say that i’m very proud to be his supporter! I understand and respect every step he made! he got criticized for not moving earlier, but he couldn’t move earlier, he tried to do things in a non-violent, diplomatic way, hamas was not interested and turned it’s back , he was very patient and waited, even when things exploded, he decided to give them another chance to back off…and 48 hours later ( a reasonable time) he decided to declare war on Hamas and made it an outlawed movement! This didn’t come out of anyone’s demands, it came from an elected palestinian leader due to an internal situation and had nothing to do with Israel or anyone else, This morning, i’m hearing everywhere people saying ” God save him” .. ” God help him” … and when people walk next to the Palestinian security forces, they can’t help but greet them and give them support! I stopped seeing this since the Oslo accords and now it’s coming back! ..

Thank you, Ramzi

That’s very insightful information that explains a lot I think. I am so disgusted with the ‘righteous’ claim of the Hamas while acting criminallike, and this is a confirmation of what I thought already (albeit without knowing the details you provided).

I didn’t know you were an Abu Mazen supporter
(So am I – ever since he, long before he became a political figure, was being asked in an interview how he tought violence influence the Palestinian youth and tears ran over his cheecks spontaneously – a person who can cry for ’someone else’ is a good person, in my eyes. I’ve never seen anybody else cry for anyone but themselves.)

Thank you, Ramzi, for the insights. They do explain a lot.

[...] Ramzi S., a West Bank Palestinian, writes: Fatah in gaza means : a Possible end to all violences and a possible renewal of the peace process , which means an end to all kinds of clandestine illegal activities such as Lawlessness, Murder, Drugs, Arms…. having in mind that Hamas is totally isolated by 99% of the world, it needs the support of the clans , their first move yesterday was to set free all the prisioners in the Gaza prisons! All of them : the Killers, the rapers, the thiefs, the Corrupt, the violent, the criminals…. I wouldn’t like to take a walk in gaza’s streets! …This move was nothing but a service for the clans ! ” we supported you, now free our clan members or else… ” [...]

Ramzi, thanks for your comments. I understand the situation a lot better now. Let’s hope that at least some of those in Gaza who are following Hamas now will at some time see that they are on the wrong path.
Tsedek, good to see you commenting here! I’m a supporter of Abu Mazen, too. He is criticized a great deal but my feeling is that he has a good heart, cares for those he leads, and that he is working for the best interests of everyone in the region. He is extremely brave, in my opinion. I have been an Abbas supporter for a long time. As Ramzi pointed out, Abbas had to handle things the way that he did. He tried everything and worked hard on his part to work with Hamas. He has made the best decision now and as Ramzi pointed out, it was his independent decision. For the sake of the Palestinian people, he must stay safe and I agree with those who say “God help him with this crisis”.

All I’ve gotta say is, thank God for this blog! Just 20 minutes ago I was staring utterly bewildered at the Haaretz headlines. Now instead of confusion and a bit of despair, Ramzi’s contagious hints of hope have hit me.

Keep us updated, Ramzi!

Tsedek!!!!!!!! *Hug* So glad to see you back!!

Noam –Hi and welcome to the neighborhood

Ramzi definitely keep us updated. Your insights into what is going on are invaluable. Have you heard from our Dalia? Dalia, I know you mentioned before that you have family in Gaza, are they ok? Very much hoping so.

BTW, I want to thank all of you guys and gals — authors and commenters alike — for the continuing excellent provision of information, questions, and discussions, not to mention the camaraderie and civility you display to one another! If you think I’m biased just cos I love you so much think again –we are being inundated with visitors (hey folks welcome and please pull up a chair, ask a question or put in your two cents — no one here bites!) and people have said some very nice things about the neighborhood.

Thanks Lynn & Yaeli. It’s nice to be back. Hugs back to both of you!

and me ????? I want a hug! I want a hug!!!!!!

I have begun to notice only more recently what was probably much in evidence earlier on, that the two Occupied Territories were drifting apart, were becoming different entities. I thought I was imagining it. But now it seems everyone is saying the same, foretelling disparate fates, one for Gaza and another for the WB.

It seems shameful to allow Gazan Palestinians to have no choice but remain under the frightening Hamas’ “era of justice and Islamic rule”. Frankly, I don’t see Mubarak in any rush to help any of them.

Where is the Arab League when it’s needed?

I also wonder if Fatah does not seem like a viable alternative only because of its proximate confrontation with Hamas?

What I mean is this: Take the Anglican Church, for example: Anglicans become more pronouncedly Catholic when they live in proximity to a Protestant majority. And they seem more Protestant when they live in proximity to a Catholic majority. But the fact is, they don’t really become more this or that, but only seem to.

Hamas is no more brutal today than it was a year ago when it targeted mainly Israelis. Nor Fatah was any less brutal a year ago, when it targeted Israelis. The reason for the perception of difference between them, which make Fatah APPEAR less brutal is that they engage with one another.

This appearance seems to work for Fatah, as far as PR is concerned.

For, sometimes perceptions become so overwhelming demanding that they impose their own chimera-reality on reality. I guess, as usual, it is up to the Palestinians to decide whether they wish Fatah to become more moderate and reasonable so that some progress can be made with Israel.

Gee, I’ve just re-read my comment and I don’t think I managed to put forth my thoughts very clearly. Simply put, where are West Bankers heading to? Are they going, finally, to reclaim their future and vote for compromise and peace?

Perhaps Ramzi can clarify this for us, but I did not think that Fatah was brutal and violent toward the Palestinian people, and many members of Fatah are moderates, seeking a fair and reasonable solution to the conflict with Israel.
I believe that many people who initially supported Hamas were seeking a change that they thought would benefit the people and did not know Hamas’ political agenda. I guess what I am saying is that as is the case with any group of people, there are significant and profound differences among the members of that group.
Noga, I share your hope that progress will be made toward peace and justice. I hope that the Israeli leadership seizes every opportunity to enhance prospects for peace.

Lynne,

Fatah was not brutal, it’s just that fatah was the movement that signed Oslo! Their Ego was bigger than them and at some point, they thought that everything was rightfully theirs so many people became very corrupt , but that’s not a Fatah Thing, it’s a fact that power corrupts ! Fatah is a socialist nationalistic party with pragmatic ideas , The differences inside the group are the following : Those who came with Arafat and those who were here in the first place, the two are very different and have different goals, while we all are one people, a lot of those who came back were corrupt from the very begining and came here because they were power thirsty while the territories Fatah was more into politics and nationalism. Arafat was used by those around him, he himself was not corrupt , i mean look at his life, not that he had a super duper life with a rolls royce parked next to the mukata’a compound in ramallah ….. it’s clear and obvious that his life was dedicated to the palestinian cause, But the problem with him was that he didn’t know when to leave , he always was a leader and couldn’t see himself as something else, which was good for the corrupt around him because they were sabbotaging almost everything he was doing , and I can tell you for a fact that Arafat was very helpful for the needy and the poor, it’s true that we don’t have social security over here, but he used to fill this role on his own, each time someone got sick and needed treatment, the presidential office was the answer, he used to Help people without hesitation with hundreds of thousands of dollars! But … the fact that he didn’t leave power earlier ( i don’t know why) made Fatah disintegrate quite fast and made it get crushed under it’s own weight!

Why people voted for hamas ?

Some of them voted out of conviction… I don’t know how many did so.
But mostly , the vote for hamas was a vote against Fatah , people got fed up with the corruption and with the one party politics , one of the ways to show it was to vote hamas, they entered the campaign with a list called ” Change and Reform”. Who doesn’t want change and reform ?
And what made hamas win largly the elections was the fact that most of the people who entered the elections as fatah people, entered on seperate lists! each one of them got his bundle of votes but it was useless because Hamas’s list was soooooo wide that they got a bunch of usually seperate votes who are only united by one thing, their hate to fatah! Technically, all the other lists got much more votes than Hamas, but it doesn’t work like that,and if they really want to succeed, they should enter the next elections as ONE LIST! …oh, and don’t forget that Fatah was the first palestinian movement to talk openly about it’s internal problems! While this was always desired by the highly educated, ordinary people didn’t appriciate it…

check this out :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_legislative_election,_2006

Now that Hamas is “in power” and power corrupts, it won’t be long before the people get fed up with them and vote for the anti-Hamas (if Hamas ever allows any sort of elections). Or at the very least, the people of Gaza will get digruntled very quickly.

This is not a phenomenon specific to Gaza or to the Palestinians. This is how power works throughout history. The same reason people voted against Bush and the GOP in the past congressional elections in the US.

Ramzi, I was just reading about the new PM, Mr. Fayyad. He received his Ph.D. right here in Austin, Texas where I live at the University of Texas! Isn’t it a small world? The article that I read went on to state that he is very accomplished and much respected internationally. I’m relieved that Abu Mazen has such excellent allies and that the Palestinian people have good people such as Mr. Fayyad and Abbas working for them.
Thanks for the explanation above! I’m checking out the wikipedia link now

Fayyad is one of the most respected palestinian political figures!

Has anyone seen reports of this incident in Lebanon?

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/06/15/lebanon.hezbollah/index.html

My concern is that Hizballah will now try something, while everyone is distracted by Gaza, just as HAMAS did while everyone was distracted by Nahr el-Bared.

Zvi,

Yes. It was all over the Lebanese blogs and media.
Albeit, this is not anything new. You have to remember that Hezbollah has operated a state within a state for years. There are parts of the country where the police or other official agencies are not allowed to go, can get “arrested” and so on.

It’s shameful, and on the other Leb blogs I frequent, the question was, of course: What freaking authority do these guys have, arresting policemen (or anyone else for that matter). They do this stuff and then claim to have whatever respect for the state of Lebanon, and they do that with a straight face.

But aside from the obvious reasons those of with respect for the state institutions are incensed, besides that, this is not some new development, nor is it a sign of a big HA offensive.

Mind you, at the core of your question is a truth: Both Hamas and Hezbollah have been operating on the same M.O. and it would be silly for anyone to disregard the timing of these various operations as coincidental. The axis of Iran-Syria-HA-Hamas is very real, and it’s quite obvious that both proxies actions are coordinated and are part of a bigger regional plan, hatched in Tehran and Damascus.

they will simply never succeed! … The winners and the loosers are already defined, it’s just the number of casualities that is to be discussed!

Ramzi.S. Jun 15th, 2007 at 2:54 pm

and me ????? I want a hug! I want a hug!!!!!!

You’re the one in the middle being crushed by all the hugs

(seriously, *hugs* 2u! )

Ramzi:
Technically, all the other lists got much more votes than Hamas,

You sure? How?

Tsedek,

proportionally , Hamas recieved 44,45% of the votes.

Fatah Recieved : 41,43%
Add to this :

Al Badeel ( quite close to fatah) : 2,92 %
Independent palestine ( close to fatah too) : 2,72 %
Third Way : 2,41 % ( Close to fatah as well)
Freedom and independence : 0,44%
Wa’ad ( National coalition for justice and democracy ) : 0,18 %
The Alternative : 2,67%

HAmas won with Gaza! there was a huge voters turnout in Gaza, especially that Hamas managed to appear as the movement to thank for the israeli withdrawal from the strip …

Gaza has : 24 seats out of the 66 seats … Hamas won the huge majority of these seats!

Thank you Ramzi. It’s a pity those independent parties contended. How would everything look like now, if Fatah would have won…. A lot better (certainly for inland Palestinian concerns) than now, I’m sure of that.

You also can’t forget how many of those Hamas votes were protest votes against Fatah with the voters having no idea that it would mean a Hamas win. I personally know of a number of people who voted for Hamas as a protest against Fatah and then had an absolute fit when the results came out and experienced despair and guilt because they never dreamed it was likely that Hamas would win.

Has anyone heard from Dalia? I’d like to know that she and all her family are ok!

yes Lynne,

she is ok, i talked to her yesterday, she sounded fine!

Mohammed Dahlan, head of Fatah Security (and probably the most wanted man by Hamas right now) made a statement to the press last night:

‘Gaza is…under Hamas’ responsibility, and it has to provide for it. It has all legal, moral and political responsibility for what could happen in Gaza,’’ Dahlan said. Dahlan defiantly taunted Hamas from his Ramallah refuge. ‘’Let Hamas provide solutions and declare a historic empire, and call it what it wishes. It has to pay the political price.’’

Is this an official stance? Is this yet another hint that things are going on behind the scenes to officially and permanently separate the West Bank and Gaza from one another into two separate political entities and two separate and distinct futures? I mean it looks that way to me. I could be wrong about this, of course –in this region of the world predicting that the sun will rise in the morning is a risky business –but Dahlan is tight with Abbas and the noises he generally makes are the official noises and not bluster or rhetoric for rhetoric’s sake.

That last part, while obviously tongue in cheek on the one hand, about the declaration of a historic empire and calling it what it wishes seems particularly to suggest….

You know, Yaeli, I reckon the good people of Gaza got exactly what they paid for. You can’t vote for a genocidal bunch of psychopaths and expect them not to act like a genocidal bunch of psychopaths.

“and the noises he generally makes are the official noises and not bluster or rhetoric for rhetoric’s sake.”

Uhm… the PA official noises usually ARE bluster and/or rhetoric for its own sake. That’s one of the things about Arab culture – it’s very… theatrical, with huge importance given to appearances.

BV -

To be perfectly frank, I don’t think this is an Iranian/Syrian conspiracy. The Hamas leadership in Damascus was extremely surprised by the turn of events in Gaza – it seems on-the-ground operatives decided to stage the attack by themselves. Moreover, in the long run this is not good for Iran. Yehuda and Shomron are rapidly losing whichever Hamas support they had, and Gaza by itself is an isolated shithole without a real ability to cause serious trouble. Gaza is not exactly a prize. And if Hamasholes cause too much trouble after declaring their fabled Islamist Reich, either Egypt or Israel will annihilate them (with covert international support).

In the meanwhile, the appointment of Salam Fayyad heralds closer ties to the West, economic reforms and a move away from Soviet Block politics/ideology. Fatah barbarians are rounding up Hamasholes in PA proper, Abbas seems to be doing the Arab ruler thing (consolidating power and eliminating political opposition)… if Abbas plays this right, PA might yet be saved – a dictatorship with rigid control over the assorted psychos, good Western ties and a strong economy.

I have it on good authority, BTW, that Fath-al-Islam is a loosely Al-Qaedish organization comprised of Iraq-trained mass murderers hiding in a sympathetic population in the camps. The Syrian connection is not entirely clear, and frankly the way this whole thing started (a bank robbery, of all things) smacks of random chance. Moreover, the recent events in Lebanon are strengthening the Army and Government while serving to unite the people (and thus they severely undermining HA); there is no better unifying agent than a bunch of psychotic mass-murderers trying to kill you. Syria is, of course, using the situation to its advantage and mayhap was responsible for the initial gathering of Iraq-trained terrorists in Lebanon, but they don’t seem to have direct control over the events.

This might just be the thing which will push Lebanese to rally behind the government and find their long-lost sense of nationhood.

So, in a seemingly possible best-case scenario, we’ll have a united Lebanon and Western-affiliated and tightly controlled PA. Which is a nightmare for Iran and Syria.

Raccoony, you make some good points re: the Syrian connection. I don’t think it is a direct connection either with Fateh in Lebanon and the Hamas uprising (obviously they are supported by Syria and Iran but I don’t think the shots were called from there on these instances). The bombings in Lebanon, on the other hand, I do think were called by Syria, particularly the assassination of the anti-Syrian MP last week.

I think you also may be very on the money when it comes to pushing the Lebanese people to rally behind the government –that appears to be happening already. Which is all to the good.

Abbas, unlike other arab leaders, is not acting like a dictator! He is doing what he should do! I don’t see any other possibility but to declare what he declared! A state of Emergency and the dissolution of the useless Haniyeh gov. was the best choice under the circumstances! He acted according to his constitutional rights and for the sake of the palestinian people’s future, he also called for early elections as soon as the situation allows! he has nothing against opposition, but Hamas was not only a political opposition, it was a Religious, ideological and a military one! I mean, just watch the al Aqsa TV ( Hamas’s voice to the world) , and you will see what they stand for! It was big time that the Palestinian Authority throws up all the bad “food” it had inside of it , it was impossible to digest it!

Now is the time to look forward, new realities are on the ground, it’s just obvious that Hamas will not participate in any upcoming elections for two reasons, the first being the fact that it’s an Outlawed movement now, and the second being that they don’t recognize any decision made by Abbas, so how can they participate in Elections if they still believe that Haniyeh is the Prime Minister ? Now, they know that if they participate , they will loose BADLY! People are running away from Gaza and now, in the WestBank, Hamas affiliated people or even sympathizers are keeping very very low profiles, all the Hamas elected people in the municipalities have not been showing up to work and their phones are turned off, their sympathizers don’t declare openly that they supported them and while these people were totally opposed to fatah in the past, they are now opposed to both Fatah and Hamas…The palestinian security forces are recieving huge support from the population, yesterday, i was in Ramallah, and the streets were full of Security men , people in the streets keep asking : ” oh why are they here? what’s happening ? ” …and the usual answer they get is ” oh, they are protecting us from the devil! I prefer to see an Armed security guy rather than an anonymous HAMAS armed person who will probably not think twice before killing me and all the others…” …. ” you are right ! May god be on their side”.

Ramzi –

I hope Abbas will become a dictator, because that seems like the only way to provide some sort of security to PA. Frankly, the Palestinian society is so saturated with hyper-violence and genocidal hatred, I doubt even a totalitarian military rule could contain that high-security asylum for homicidal maniacs. On average, the Palestinians have proven that they prefer killing random people to building an economy. Moreover, the clan mentality prevents real democratic rule. Ergo, sanity will have to be imposed on the PA population.

I am sure you’ll argue this point… but, Ramzi’le, truth is a harsh mistress. The Palestinians have invested scores of years, millions of dollars and an impressive collective effort to turn themselves into the aforementioned horde of homicidal maniacs. It’s going to take a long, long while and some very drastic measures for the street slogan to change from “yitbah el-yahood” and into even something as pathetic as “bread and circus”.

[...] Now if we look at the breakdown of the voting from the last election (thank you Ramzi for the reminder of the figures) we see the following: [...]

uh…

I don’t think that we live on the same planet Raccoon , how comes you claim to know my population , my own population, better than me ? you have judgements…it’s your right to judge, but judging is not the same as knowing! … i have no intentions to live under any dictator , much less, to kill anyone…your judgements tend to be somewhat racist, we are not animals and we don’t need anyone’s advice on how to lead our lives, abbas is doing what should be done, that’s where it stops!

Some random thoughts -

I’m worried that with the electoral choice of nearly half the population outlawed, that’s not a recipe for stability after the next election.

I understand from the numbers posted above that Hamas did disproportionately well in Gaza, but what percentage of the vote did they get in the WB?

Has Fatah changed so much that the reasons people had to vote for ANY opposition have disappeared? If not, won’t we end up with a low-turnout election and a government not seen by the voters as legitimate?

I understand this new guy, Fayyed, is seen as pro-Western and not tainted by corruption, but he’s just one guy and if he isn’t part of the corrupt government structure then perhaps he has no power base within it. How likely is it that he’ll be able to make any kind of real difference?

Ramzi, ya Ramzi…

An exemplary reaction. So full of vim and vigor; so unrelated to the issue at hand; so emotional; so nonconstructive.

I made an observation and an analysis. Both were absolutely unrelated to your desires.

Moreover, I care not for your needs. I simply… observe and analyze. I am not even dispensing advise (not unless I am paid for it).

And as for me being racist… my observations are unrelated to race. I have never noticed any demeanor difference between hunam races, and these “races” are not clearly defined anyway, so genetic differences are largely irrelevant.

Raccoon, while I often agree with you on many matters, I do not agree that the Palestinians are a bunch of homicidal maniacs. I believe that as is often the case, the extremists are in the minority and are making people believe that the entire society is comprised of extremists–which is not the case.
There have been too many years of bitter conflict between the Palestinian people and the Israelis which has altered the perceptions of both groups of people. In a violent conflict such as this, there is anger and fear. In the future, there will be much to overcome.
As is always the case (and even more particularly so when there is chaos), a very strong leader is needed to restore order and confidence. I believe an hope that person is Abu Mazen. I do not believe that he is trying to establish himself as a dictator—might be better if he did for a while to calm things down—but he seems to be desperately trying to preserve democracy and as many freedoms for the Palestinian people as possible. I believe that this is admirable, and he has my respect.
I am fond of Abbas. I am fond of him even we I disagree with him wholeheartedly and when I am bitterly disappointed in some of the things that he says. I try to move past these things to the areas where we do agree, and I try to understand his perspective and situation. I believe –as Ramzi says–that Abbas is doing what he can do and should do under the circumstances. I hope that continues and that he refuses to bow to pressure to deal with Hamas. Let the folks that think that anyone can reasonably deal with Hamas go try it themselves! The objective should be peace in the ME and taking steps to solve other economic, environmental and social problems. Anyone who does not have that objective is part of the problem. We need some concrete steps in the right direction, and (I may be wrong) but Abu Mazen seems to be taking them.

I think I understand what Racoon wants to say because I share, to a certain extent, his position that Palestinians have abrogated any responsibility for their calamitous situation. I hardly think that Pals are “horde of homicidal maniacs”, but they sure seem to be passive, at best, when challenged to make good choices for their children’s futures.

As for the election of Hamas, and its gory aftermath, here is this little Aesop fable which I’m sure you all heard before:
__________

A Farmer found a Snake stiff and frozen with cold. He took it into his home and quickly revived it by the warmth. However, as soon the snake could muster enough strengh, he bit its benefactor, inflicting a mortal wound.

“Oh,” cried the Farmer with his last breath, “Is this how you repay me for my kindness?”

The snake replied: “Don’t pretend, please, that you didn’t know what I was when you decided to bring me into your home. I am a snake, and this is what I do.”

________________

It’s pretty stupefying to read Palestinian self-exculpatory rationalization over their election of Hamas. The French also voted in protest at one time for an unsavoury would-be fascist at the first cycle of their presidential elections. But even so, it was app. 20% of the vote, and when LePen came out as a serious candidate, the electors were so distraught and ashamed by this result that of course he stood not a chance to make it in the final round.

We are informed by Ramzi that Hamas won “only” 44% of the votes, as some sort of proof that it was not really the will of the Palestinian people. In a democracy, where the basic premise is responsible citizenship, this is a very nice showing for any party, especially when it gives the elections to this party.

How many votes did “Kadima” have in the last Israeli elections?

Raccoon, Ramzi’s reaction unconstructive? How do you expect him or any of us to respond to a characterization of the entire Palestinian people as “a horde of homicidal maniacs”?
I understand your frustration and your anger. I do. I promise you that I do understand.
You know that the entire Palestinian people are not that. You are not going to see me defending the American people as a group. We are a diverse group and some Americans are wonderful and some are homicidal maniacs. Thank heavens, the maniacs are in the extreme minority but they cause fear, misery and general apprehension within our society. I just don’t think that you can paint the entire group with one big, black brush.
Yalla! We are supposed to be talking to each other in a friendly, constructive dialogue.

Noga, I know that there are many Palestinians who actively work for peace in the ME.
I do agree that Hamas has always revealed the group’s true intent and not pursued a path that would lead to peace, and in fact, vowed the destruction of Israel, so it is time that everyone stops dealing with this band of murderers.

Lynne – had KKK been the single largest political party in the USA, I would have wondered what the Americans are thinking. If Americans were lynching people on the street for being Jews, knowing Jews or not wanting to kill Jews, I would have put USA off my travel list. And had the American government dedicated itself to killing me, genociding my people and destroying my state – all with massive popular support and more – I would have probably researched the American culture, looking for the cause of their mass homicidal psychosis.

It seems that the main point of my comment was somehow missed. I am not saying anything about every single Palestinian. I have certain observations about their culture, social norms, education and general attitude (all acquired societal traits). Namely: The Palestinians have invested scores of years, millions of dollars and an impressive collective effort to turn themselves into a horde of homicidal maniacs.

The success of this endeavor was, fortunately, partial. But it was more than enough – the long years of propaganda and indoctrination that would have made Goebbels proud.

So again, let me reiterate:

I see the popular support for Hamas (a genocidal part of homicidal maniacs) as natural given the prevailing trends in the Palestinian society. And these trends, in turn, were nourished by decades of indoctrination and propaganda (for genocide and being homicidal maniacs).

I sincerely hope that I am utterly and completely off base, have zero understanding of the situation and so on and so forth. But, alas, experience proves me right. And if you want to hear pretty things, let’s not talk about the Middle East, yes?

Lynne -

so did Fatah.

Raccoon ,

when i hear you talking about ” Jews being lynched” everywhere…. I remember Fox news and their guests, i also remember all those who never visited this place! how many jews are murdered daily by us ? How many jews are murdered by jews ? see for yourself! Enough already with this “lyching” thing! I can also say that palestinians are being lynched daily by israelis , and yes, this will not be constructive at all! Do you really believe that we all have this “orgasmic desire” to lynch jews over here in the westbank ? Do you really believe that it feels “OK” to kill anyone over here ? Don’t you know that there is something called propaganda ? … Yes, we have it, you have it too! and this propaganda is what makes you believe that we want to kill you, don’t tell me that you have Facts! I LIVE HERE! I live between and am part of this population you tend to call ” Bunch of homocidal maniacs who want to murder jews” ….

From your first comment here at Gnblog, i told you that we didn’t have any desire to kill anyone, that we just want to live like everyone else, your stance never changed , you still believe in the same propaganda!

you used to criticize Abbas’s lack of power and lack of action, now , not only he disbanded the hamas gov. , he also outlawed the movement, in the west bank, everyone is rejoicing and in Gaza, people are running away from hamas ( this indicates that many gazans are also against hamas) , Does this mean that we want to kill you ? Abbas, our ELECTED leader, did all the things nobody on your side expected him to do, yet, you still criticize him! you never give any solutions, you always want ” more” and when you get the more you wanted, you start wanting more, even if Abbas will call himself Yossi tomorrow and will start his own zionnist party, i’m sure that you’ll find something to criticize about him! Now, this is what i call Not constructive! …We all know that the region is in a very difficult situation and is facing really difficult times, we don’t need to hear that ” everything is impossible”, we already know that things are hard as they are, but when you make positive developpements sound more negative than anything else,expect this kind of reaction from me!

As for your Fatah link up there…

did you look at the date ?

“Resolutions of the Palestine National Council July 1-17, 1968″

Arafat, your Public enemy number one, changed ALLLLL OF THIS for your convenience…

Many many many of the israeli leaders called and still call for the “Transfer” of the palestinian populations, for the ” Ethnic cleansing of the land of israel” , for the ” Crushing of the arab nation” most of these leaders are still there, and they are not only there, they are in the government! arn’t this people homicidal maniacs ? sharon , Netanyahu , Ovadia Yossef , Mofaz , Rabin, Lieberman , Goldstien, Golda Meir, shamir……… ? … Don’t you think that you also have your bunch of Homicidal Maniacs now ? and a lot of them still believe that arabs must disappear…. Just like Hamas when it comes to israel! Yes, i can claim the same thing as you! I can also say that many israelis wish me dead! especially those living in the settelments and many of those living in israel proper … Yet, i don’t call your people ” homicidal maniacs”…

And Noga come on…. all the high ranking israeli officials predicted that this was going to happen when israel left Gaza, they all insisted on the fact that Hamas people will be viewed as the Liberators of Gaza!…with more than a Third of the palestinian population living in Gaza, and having in mind the way that Hamas works and uses it’s ” humanitarian relief” side , it can’t not get 99,9% of the votes in Gaza…as for the Westbank, there sure are a few people who voted for hamas, but the majority of the Westbank voted basically for Fatah! the 41% that fatah got are from the WestBank…the rest of the votes of the westbank went elsewhere and evaporated with the useless lists …

Don’t compare to the French Electorate…The people who voted Le Pen in 2002 revoted LE Pen during the second round, it’s just that many people abstained during the first round and voted during the second…. it’s as easy as that! … Oh, and why did Le Pen not recieve the Same amount of votes during the second round ? his voters are very proud, they don’t like to vote twice for a person who will loose ! Anyways…that’s french voters sociology… i won’t bore you with that …

And israel did the same mistake when it went out of Lebanon in 2002 ….. Hizballah was viewed as the party that crushed the israeli enemy! That’s the price of unilateral actions ….

Racoon,

I don’t know what good authority you have your information on, but in the world of Middle Eastern politics there ARE NO COINCIDENCES.

Furthermore, Fath-Al-Islam, although comprised of Al-Qaeda types from Iraq (as you said), is known to have been established by Syrian Intelligence.
Its leader, Shaker Absi splintered from Fath Intifada (which is a KNOWN Syrian Intelligence creation, since the 1980s) last year to declare his Al-Qaeda ideology.
He’s a KNOWN double agent who’s worked for Syrian Intelligence for 20 years (see link supplied below) and who’s operated in Syrian controlled places (be it Syria itself or Lebanon’s Palestinian camps) for decades in some form or the other. Now everyone expects us to believe he’s just a random Al-Qaeda terrorist who decided to start a holy war in Lebanon over a bank robbery, without any encouragement from Damascus? And who just happens to have huge stockpiles of weapons under the nose of everybody?

Sometimes, I think you only see the reality you want to see, Racoon (going by your previous posts and your rant about the Hamas thing, which I’ll get to in a second). So, explain to me how in your logic, this guy stockpiles all these weapons and starts crap at complete randomness, but when Hezbollah does it (like last summer), Israel is quick to point out the weapons shipments from Syria and so on. How is this any different? Where do you think Fath Al Islam’s weapons came from? Timbuktu?

As for Hamas. Again, follow the trail. Hamas might very well have started this takeover of Gaza on a whim, based on a local operative’s reaction. But do you think for a moment if Khaled Meshaal and co. in Damascus hadn’t given the ok, this thing would’ve been allowed to continue and snowball out of control? Think again.
Do you even understand how these secretive organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah work? They are VERY organized. There is a very strict chain of command, as is being proven by Hamas and was shown by Hezbollah last summer. These guys don’t just randomly take over Gaza without their leaders knowing exactly how it’s all going down, and giving the ok.

You can’t have it both ways: You can’t say these guys are real organized, and efficient, and then liken their actions to a bunch of disorganized and leaderless gangsters.

I forgot to post the links about Fath Al Islam. So here goes. Hopefully this won’t get stuck in moderation due to the links:

Racoon, read this:

http://beirut2bayside.blogspot.com/2007/06/asef-shawkat-and-fateh-al-islam.html

http://beirut2bayside.blogspot.com/2007/03/nyts-discovery-of-fateh-al-islam.html

Links for Racoon (my previous attempt at posting these got hung up in moderation i think):

http://beirut2bayside.blogspot.com/2007/06/asef-shawkat-and-fateh-al-islam.html

And this:

http://beirut2bayside.blogspot.com/2007/03/nyts-discovery-of-fateh-al-islam.html

Heads up!

Two Katyusha rockets slammed across the Lebanese border into Kiryat Shmona this afternoon. Is it Hezbollah? Palestinians? I tell you the UNIFIL people are utterly USELESS. The head of UNIFIL was here just last week and he claimed that what both our intelligence says and what the Lebanese army says is utterly wrong –that Syria is not shipping weapons into Lebanon and that there are absolutly no illegal weapons south of the Litani. He claimed that the UN folks there were ready to “die defending Israel.” So yo, dude, if there are no illegal weapons where they hell did these two Katyusha’s come from? Where were your forces that supposedly are covering “every inch of terrain” as you told us? Useless!

This is very obviously not a coincidence.

Yup. Not a coincidence at all. Tell that to Racoon

Naharnet is reporting (who knows if it’s true) that the rockets were launched by “Palestinian militants” (not Hezbollah). For whatever that’s worth (not that it matters who launched the rockets as far as Israel is concerned).

http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/NewsDesk.nsf/Lebanon/245BBB516A4FA4E6C22572FD005D67D2?OpenDocument

could this be hamas? i dont know… is it a way to divert attention from the strip?

It doesn’t matter what the facts are, Israelis BELIEVE that all Palestinians want them dead. The facts on the ground (Hamas elections, qassams, etc.) just reinforce this impression. We see everything as being connected to us. Ramzi, I believe you. I speak a lot with Palestinians who reinforce everything you say but it is difficult to argue with belief of 5 million Israeli Jews not to mention Jews around the world who feel that we are being targeted because we are Jews.

listening to a talkshow on Palestine TV ( Official TV) , you can’t imagine what is being said about hamas! ” How do they control the youth ?” ” how do they endoctrinate the children?” ” what is their program?” …. These questions are answered by young people in the Studio and by callers from all over the place including Gaza, The word ” Traitors” is almost said by everyone, from all the callers, only one supported hamas and ended up hanging up because he couldn’t defend his ideas with anything rational….

Some other questions raised : Is it logical that children play with arms ? ( The answer is always no) … What justifies the attacks against Sderot ? ( The answer is : The Culture of violence) …. ” What is Resistance ?” ( the answer is wide…But is always opposed to hamas’s vision, Resistance is wanting a State and fighting for it peacefully … ” Children between 13 and 18 have never been exploited by any palestinian movement …Hamas created institutions to attract these young boys and girls and exploited them with Religion” …. ) …A very active Fatah young man is saying that It’s very very important to remove all the weapons from all the palestinian streets and that Hamas always called the weapons of the Clans “Resistance weapons” that”s why it never was removed! Even when fatah was ruling , it couldn’t do anything in gaza because it had no power to confront Hamas there…)

Conclusion :

Question : What is the role of the palestinian young people at this point ?

- Girl 1 from Birzeit University: To save Palestine by helping the innocent people of Gaza
- young man 1 : It’s our duty to defend palestine , we have to help get rid of all the weapons before the next elections
- young man 2 : To call for a Fact Finding mission in order to know who’s guilty…
- Young man 3 : I respect the people who went out to the streets in order to stop the fighting in Gaza and who got shot at , now, it’s time that every palestinian goes down to the streets and to say no to all what is happening, to say no to abusing the children, to say no to the occupation, to say no to violence, to say no to extremism, to say no to terrorism, now, every palestinian should do this!

Corey,

What is the solution ? You can’t ask us to proove the contrary, i believe that the solution should also come from inside the jewish community all over the world! I know for a Fact that a huge overwhelming majority of jews all over the world feel that they are the target of ” Genocidal arabs” ! But don’t you think that if this community want’s to live in peace, it should stop feeling this way ? … Jordan made peace with Israel, Egypt too, Syria is talking about peace, Mauritania , Qatar ( De Facto), Saudi Arabia is reaching to israel ( The Arab Peace plan…) , Mahmoud Abbas is risking his life and almost being called ” Collaborator” by a lot of people all over the world….he even outlawed israel’s nightmare, hamas! With all this, jewish people still feel threatned? … What are the expectations ? Whatever they are, do you expect them to ever be met?

What shall i say ? a wall is built around me, i’m stopped daily at checkpoints, yelled at and treated badly etc… Yet, i don’t believe that all israelis want my death, and i don’t believe at all that the majority of jews want my death … actually i don’t even think about it , while i have many good reasons to do so!…

Ramzi -

You’re not actually reading what I write, it seems. And your comparisons are as outlandish as usual. We’ve been over this before. Believe what you want. Hiding from the truth will get you – and many others – killed. Always did, always will.

BV -

I have no doubt that Syria and Iran are arming FAI. They are probably making sure they get new recruits, training, etc. Which doesn’t mean they have complete control over FAI. It is reasonable for them to support such groups, since a stable and free Lebanon is very very bad for their interests.

You have to remember, though, that these groups are well-organized on cell level, with relatively little central command control. That’s just the way Al-Qaeda and its ilk operate. So yes, they are both very organized and very disorganized.

Which is why a bank robbery can start a small war. Or why Hamas in Gaza can start a war without a command from Damascus. Not that the assorted relevant parties wouldn’t want to use these little adventures to further their agendas… but the actions of the terrorists on the ground are not necessarily coordinated ahead from above.

Ramzijust watch the al Aqsa TV ( Hamas’s voice to the world) , and you will see what they stand for!

What are they standing for? What do they show?

Palestine TV : they are showing Arafat, with many world leaders, they are also showing him greeting Rabin, Peres , Clinton… .they are showing images of the peace process,they showed a video of Arafat planting an Olive tree, greeting children, modifying thz Charter of Fatah and the PLO, recieving Chirac, a speech of him saying ” Hopefully, next year, we will hold this press conference in East Jerusalem : Whether in Oslo, in Hebron or in wye river, I send my thanks to the Palestinian Woman who is the guard of our dream, as for our prisioners, our peace partners in Israel will start freeing 750 persons tomorrow ” ….. The video ends with the Palestinian Army marching and with a little palestinian girl holding a palestinian Flag and smiling!
at the end of the clip : a sentence appeares with ” Yes, this is the right way ! ”

contrast with the Hamas TV :

Hamas TV is showing clips against fatah, pictures of Dahlan kissing olmert, of Mahmoud abbas greeting Rice and Bush, of Erekat recieving Solana, of Abbas talking to an israeli soldier, the words of the song are ” Who are the ones who want to spill the blood of palestine ? These collaborators should disappear” ” Those who are against Islam will face this destiny”

Nah…i’m reading you very well Raccoon… Don’t worry!

As for my life, please don’t worry about it … i love it way too much to give it up, i’m not hiding from anything, it’s just that i know My Truth much more than you know it since it’s mine and since i live it everyday, you can’t know it better than me, unless you believe that you have superior powers that give you authority to know “The Truth” more than anyone else!… if it’s the case, then the discussion stops here…

There is a huge difference between beliefs and Facts…. You never lived between palestinians, serving in the territories doesnt mean living with palestinians, you don’t know what we stand for, you know what they tell you about us! and “they” is a huge concept! … In order to know who we really are, take off your uniform and come for a visit….

Racoon,

I don’t disagree with your latest comment, but you’re making small distinctions that don’t really matter in the end.

Does it matter if a bank robbery started the whole affair or if it was someone from Damascus who called FAI and told them “Go start a war”? No. Once the war started (for whatever reason, doesn’t matter), the people in Damascus supplied the weapons and encouragement for it to continue.

Same in Gaza: Does it matter if it was some 15-year old Hamas guy’s idea to take over Gaza or if the order came from Meshaal himself? Nope. In the end, the people in Damascus helped and did nothing to stop it. Because it’s in their interest.

I don’t suppose you blame Syria and Iran for supplying Hezbollah with rockets last summer? By your logic? Or maybe you don’t even blame Nasrallah. Cause after all, he probably didn’t know the details of the little cross- border raid that started the whole mess?
(this is sarcasm, btw).

OF COURSE you blame those guys!

Trust me, if Nasrallah, Iran and Syria thought the cross border raid was a bad idea, or starting a war was a bad idea, they would have intervened, broken the heads of those responsible for the kidnapping, and returned the Israeli soldiers.

If Syria and company didn’t feel instability in Nahr El Bared served their interests, the FAI episode would’ve been over in ONE DAY. They would’ve been dragged out of Nahr El Bard and handed over to the Lebanese authorities in about 3 hours.

So no, i don’t believe these incidents are isolated, or random.
It might be that the higher ups don’t really care about the details. Or what exactly is done. But you can be sure they’re sending out word to “Start some trouble.” This stuff isn’t random.

Well, a debate among us is not bad; it clarifies things. We can share our perceptions and feelings–get more information and modify those perceptions.
BV, yes, I imagine that you are right; I doubt that these are random incidents. I bet that the Hamas leadership is feeling some grave doubts now and did not expect Abbas’ reaction and decisions. They are now looking at the hard position that they have put themselves in through their violence and blind hatred–of Israel and Fatah. Perhaps they believed that they could destroy Abbas and Fatah. I’m glad that they did not.

Lynne,

Mashaal is begging for talks with Abbas now that Hamas is totally isolated! The only countries still dealing with it on the political level are Syria and Malaysia ! …Abbas is refusing to talk to any hamas member, yesterday, he made a speech in front of the new government, it clearly showed that now, the public enemy number one is Hamas! He encouraged the new ministers and thanked them for accepting their very dangerous new jobs since each one of them can get targeted by Hamas supporters and Militants at any moment! I’m proud that i have such a president, i’m happy that Fayyad is heading this government as well as the ministry of Foreign affairs, as for the Interior minister, he has a very very good reputation,a prestigious military past and he is very moderate and very pragmatic and determined to fight lawlessness and corruption , The minister of local authorities, social affairs and agriculture is also very good, i know him personally and i can tell you that he has excellent relations with everyone, he was the Vice-mayor of bethlehem 3 years ago and was the Minister of Tourism under the Abbas Government , a really good and pragmatic open minded man. The minister of tourism and women’s affairs ,a quite conservative christian , has a strong personality and a clear program ( eventhough i can’t stand her Anti Gays positions..but she is a conservative, so it’s expected) . The Minister of higher education is also a very well respected open minded academic woman…

Here is a little overview of the new gov.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/06/17/africa/ME-GEN-Palestinians-Cabinet-Thumbnails.php

I am very glad that I came upon this blog (from Yael’s Oleh Girl blog) – this whole discussion is very enlightening, especially on what’s happening in the West Bank with Abbas. In my blog a couple of days ago I wrote something very despairing about Abbas and his power to do anything – but it does seem that he is doing very constructive things! I certainly hope that Hamas is feeling isolated – they should be!

I just arrived in Israel last week and will be here until August – and this blog will definitely be one of my useful sources of information and analysis while I’m here. Thank you all.

BV -

You do know that we agree, right?

It seems to me from the way you state your views that you think I would blame Syria when Israel is attacked by their proxies but not if Lebanon is attacked.

Which is ridiculous. Considering the interests and actions of both Syria and Iran, they are directly and indirectly responsible for a huge chunk of Middle Eastern troubles.

We disagree on the implementation of Syrian/Iranian policies of warmongering; to the best of my knowledge, they simply spread a lot of arms among assorted psychotic organizations and wait for these to act, occasionally using their own intelligence services to poke them in the right direction. Moreover, HA (as an arm of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard) are under much stricter control from higher up than, say, Al-Qaeda sub-groups. Different methods, different underlying ideologies and military philosophies, etc.

In some cases, therefore, the order to attack comes from above; in others, attacks just happen. I believe that the recent FAI war against Lebanon was instigated by on-the-ground terrorists rather than Damascus or Tehran. But of course both Damascus and Tehran could stop it very quickly had they wanted, and of course they’re making sure it goes on, probably even pushing it in desired directions. Same about the Gaza takeover.

Ramzi, I wrote a rather long posting referring to your reaction of june 17, 4:45PM, and it got stuck and erased

My question was how about the PMW (yeah, I know: manipulated propaganda- however, bear with me one sec. ) – scenes they show from palestinian tv? Were they not broadcast like that? Are they no actual broadcasts?

I only ask you because I’m highly confused (no ill-intentions) and don’t know how to place those.

Obviously I know they’re ‘highlights’ being ‘overprojected’ if they are true and not the overall picture, but that doesn’t take away my confusion about their existence.

I like your Jun 17th, 2007 at 4:10 pm posting especially the end “conclusion” – it sounds very hopeful.

Hmmmm… and here is an interesting bit of Zionist propaganda. Is this what you had in mind, Ramzi?

I know that this sounds stupid, but I would rather called stupid than ignorant:
Can somebody explain to me why is it taking so long to clean up FAI from, at least, one of the camps? Thanks. Diana

Tsedek ,

The palestine TV is a State run TV , so it’s views reflect the views of the State, when Hamas controlled it, a lot of it’s stances were “moderately” aired! I say moderately because compared to what they air on their own Al aqsa TV , what they used to air on Pal TV was nothing but a funny joke ! …

PMW managed to translate most of what is said, and many many times added “spices” … for example, when arafat used to say ” lets fight for peace” they used to translate it with ” lets kill jews” ! …and many many other things, so no matter how crazy the Administration at the Pal TV used to be, it never was as crazy as PMW pictured it!

Diana –BV or Raees are the ones best to answer this but I’ll give a stab at it, at the risk of sounding both stupid and ignorant I believe it is because the army cannot actually go inside the refugee camps to clear them out –by law, Lebanese authorities are forbidden from entering the camps for any reason. Thus they are only able to combat them by shelling the camps from the outside rather than going in and pulling them out of their hiding places. So long as fighters remain in the camps they can’t be touched by the government unless it is through the shelling or shooting at them from outside the borders of the camps which are quite large (basically small cities) and the fighters have many places within them to hole up in.

Okay Ramzi, thank you for your answer.

Incorrect translations….

Why is it so that those can exist when there are so many million people around who could correct that at a whimp? Darn.

Ramzi says:

” for example, when arafat used to say ” lets fight for peace” they used to translate it with ” lets kill jews” !”

This seems like more than deliberate mistranslation. This seems like downright lying. It is a serious accusation. Can Ramzi back up his claim with some evidence, please?

Ramzi can proove it, just he needs some time to look for an exchange of Emails between himself and a pro israel website who used to show videos from PMW, i sent him an email informing him about the Mis-translations a long time ago, and he removed the video in question from his website … I have more than 2000 Emails in the folder… I’ll have to look really wellllll and i’ll eventually find it!

Tsedek ,

Yes many people can understand the language mistranslated, but much more don’t have an idea about what they are hearing , For example, i take a japanese Video and translate the words ” Young mang mong” to ” let’s kill jews” ..;how many people will question this translation ?

” Ithbahoo il yahood” as Raccoon said isn’t that common … Personally i heard it once in a historical film about the Pre Islam period … It’s not the kind of things we hear on PA official TV, and it’s not the kind of things that we are used to…. Oh, and PA officials ( the PA started existing in 1995 ) NEVER NEVER NEVER used such expressions In case anyone had any doubt!

Ramzi -

Until you find that E-mail… the single worst mistranslation I have heard is translating “Hudna” as “peace”, calm, or anything constructive for both sides.

is this a fact or a Judgment Raccoon ? …. Do you have any proofs yourself ? from non-pro israeli sources that is …

I’ll take a stab at the Fath Al Islam question above.

Mind you, I’m as much in the dark as most of you, being that I am nowhere near being close to the action (several thousand miles away, actually).
But Yaeli’s comment is partly correct. The Lebanese Army has until recently never been authorized to enter any Palestinian camps (thanks to the idiotic Cairo accords of 1959). Security in said camps is supposed to be entrusted to the local palestinian factions (which in this day and age, in Lebanon, are NOT unified, nor do they answer to the PA much).

Having said that, it appears that the Lebanese Army was indeed given the political cover to finish off Fath Al Islam, by not only the Lebanese government, but also by the PA (and its representative in Lebanon), even if it means entering the camp. The LA has entered the camp already and is attempting to clean it up. But as you all know, it is not an easy task (very much like the IDF entering Gaza for instance) to root out militants entrenched in heavily populated areas, amongst buildings, narrow streets, etc. The Lebanese Army appears to be doing its best to also avoid civilian casualties, for fear of having the public opinion (specially amongst the Pal refugees in other camps) turn against them. The LA cannot afford to spread itself any thinner (they already have to deal with the Hezbollah protest in Beirut, and other Palestinian camps in the country) and an uprising say, in the Ain El Hilweh camp would be disastrous.

On top of this, word is, Fath Al Islam is being reinforced by other pro syrian fighters (namely of Ahmad Jibreel’s PFLP-GC) both with weapons and fighters. I find it interesting that the initial reports were of Fath Al Islam being about 150 guys. And as the conflict drew longer, that number went up. Now the reports are 300-500 guys or whatever. That tells me they’re getting help!

Mind you, that was me stating what I’ve read here and there. I have to agree with Diana’s question in the end. Cause my sentiment has been the same: This thing has gone on long enough. The longer it drags, the worse it gets for our government and our army. This should have been nipped in the bud and wrapped up in the first week.

Racoon: I know you and I agree on the above discussion. It’s just that sometimes you come out with these somewhat generic statements that only suit a certain view of reality (like your comment about coincidences and randomness of these attacks).

thanks ramzi. i believe you. knowing how things can get manipulated to fit about everything someone would like to hear – i have no doubt that the realities behind those manipulations are quite different than they are presented to us. in fact i would recommend the raccoon to listen to die-hard anti-israel propaganda and admit to me that there is a grain of truth in every piece of demonization they bring forward but this grain of truth has nothing to do with the picture they’re creating. so, it is only logical that these tactics are being used the other way around as well by die-hard pro-israel propagandists.

I have been following the discussion on this blog for several weeks and have enjoyed the dialog and learned much. But after reading this comment thread I have to say that I am disheartened by the direction it has taken. In large part this is due to old biases and fears which always corrupt rational debate: the they are all out to get me syndrome. It affects both sides in this conflict. And it leads to useless generalities, such as all Palestinians or all Jews are this or that. This is just intellectually lazy thinking and will always lead to a debasing of the conversation. In this thread it has also lead to a debate over past events when we should be talking about a path forward. Both sides have used history to support their specific worldview, and both sides spin events to affect public opinion. I am sure many examples can be found but what will be solved by going down this road? It is definitely important to know your history, but the past is full of land mines.

And now that I have gotten that off my chest I would like to pose a question. In an earlier thread I read about the not so new idea of a West Bank Palestinian/Jordanian confederation. Now, I am definitely a believer in the Two State Solution (or is it a three state solution now) but why not consider an Israel/Palestinian confederation after Palestinian independence? Both populations already share a common currency and are already economically integrated. Although culturally, a confederation with Jordan would seem to make sense, I believe the Palestinians would prosper more in an Israeli confederation and at the same time Jewish Israelis could feel like they still have a link to areas of Jewish historical significance in an independent Palestine. This could also be a basis for a resolution of competing claims over Jerusalem.

I don’t know how this is going to be received, and I hope I am not out of line, but I would be interested in hearing everyone’s thoughts. I know the devil is in the details but is something like this not even possible to consider at this point? Or has it already been discussed and rejected?

Yakov,

I don’t think the idea of an Israeli/Palestinian confederation would fly for so many reasons. More like explode before even beginning taxing for take-off. It is far too close to a “one-state” solution, the long history of bad blood between us would prevent it, the very real threat of continued violence– this time from close enough to “within” for each side would prevent it– the sense on the Palestinian side certainly that they are still under occupation, demographic fears, you name it. Absolutely would not occur in my lifetime I don’t think –nor do I think I myself would be in favour of it for the reasons listed above.

Yakov:

This idea is not new. Bernard Lewis used to float the idea of an economic partnership between Israel, Palestine and Jordan based on the model of Benelux (Belgium, Holland and Luxembourg). Arafat, in one of his better moments (those were rare, as far as Israelis are concerned) mentioned it once in an interview as a desirable future possibility. If conditions were ripe for it (namely, Palestinians grow up to take responsibility for their future and shun violence in favour of normalcy), I think such a partnetship could go a long way.

I’m not optimistic, though. I fear that Ramzi here who seems genuinely interested in peace, does not represent the average Palestinian. He is an exception. That does not mean that his kind of politics may win in the end, but it also doesn’t mean that we can take it for a fact that it will win.

And speaking of Ramzi:

I appreciate the effort he makes in trying to produce the evidence for the mistranslation. However, what he avows on behalf of Arafat is not born out by some famous Arafat speeches where he openly encouraged Jihad:

__________________
“Yasser Arafat’s Palestinian Authority issued a short condemnation of the
attack on Israeli civilians on both its state radio and its internet outlets
several hours after the bombing, but only 24 hours after Arafat himself had
called for “more martyrdom” and for “holy war” in Jerusalem.

“To Jerusalem we will march – millions of martyrs. And, O God, Master of the Universe, please let me be one of the martyrs.” shouted Arafat to an adoring crowd of Palestinians outside his headquarters in Ramallah yesterday (Saturday Jan. 27).

Arafat’s words in Arabic were broadcast across the Arab world by
“Al-Jazeera,” the Arab satellite television service which also showed
Arafat, waving his right hand as he led the crowd in a chant-”Al-jihad,
al-jihad, al-jihad, al-jihad, al-jihad, al-jihad”: “Holy war, holy war, holy
war, holy war, holy war, holy war.”

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/616831/posts
_____________________

Correction:

“That does not mean that his kind of politics may NOT win in the end, but it also doesn’t mean that we can take it for a fact that it will win.”

Yakov,

I agree with the others. Israeli-Palestinian confederation (although not a bad idea in an absolute sense) is practically unthinkable right now, considering the amount of bad blood and the fears in the psyches of both peoples. Maybe in 100 years, after a couple of generations of peaceful cooexistence, sure.

Having said that, Noga used the words “economic cooperation”. There, I don’t see a problem. I think both sides have a lot to gain from economic cooperation (once some sort of peaceful status is attained). Same goes for Lebanon-Israel. I see a lot of potential there for a lot of innovation, technology, commerce, etc. considering both peoples (well, all 3, if we count Lebanese, Palestinians and Israelis) have a lot of bright minds and know how in terms of what makes for good economy and business.

Concerning the one-state solution, I find it quite arrogant to say: “our hate, bad blood, conflict is too big, too deep to make peace”. This conflict is by far not the worst that exists and – more important – existed around. See the French, British, Dutch etc. and the Germans, and compare 1945 and now. Or Japan and Korea. See what the Hutu and Tutsi are doing. South Africa, Liberia, Cote d’Ivoire. Ok, they are all different people and different situations, but bad blood, oppression, hate and killing was there as well, quite abundantly. Who do you think you are? Of course peace can be made, others made it who were on much worse terms. There is not even oil here!
Sometimes I think the biggest problem is that it’s so convenient for the media people. Reporters sleep in Tel Aviv or West Jerusalem, and go to Jenin or Gaza for some hours in the afternoon for some evening-news-pictures. If the whole world wasn’t watching this, maybe some sane people would have won one or the other election and made peace long ago.

Ramzi –

I don’t know whether you’re Muslim or Christian… but surely you know of the Treaty of Hudaybiyya?

And what Umdat as-Salik says about hudna with infidels?

And the language in which this… hudna… was framed in PA media?

Then again… believe what you want. Pretend what you want. Reality will remain reality.

Hi Ramzi,

I apologize for not commenting sooner- I am taking a course on mediation which has me very busy.

I am REALLY impressed by what you wrote above on the talk show on Palestine TV. In Israel, we never hear anything like this about you guys. We only hear the negative words about us. The majority of Israelis crave to hear Palestinians questioning the violence, the direction Palestinians are heading. Since we never hear the questioning and protest against the violence, there is a vacuum of information where we assume violence is the entire Palestinian culture.

To get to your posting- I believe both sides suffer from A LOT of misinformation about each other- mostly what motivates the other side. We see you as Jew haters, you see us as colonists who want to take over all your land. The problem is telling us to “get over it” doesn’t work just like me telling you time to get over your issues won’t help. I believe once there is an agreement (or before) there needs to be massive advertising campaigns to “remarket” images to the other. It will probably be criticized but it is better than the current situation where paranoia, anger and frustration rule.

I definitely understand the skepticism. But confederation would not necessarily mean unified political bodies. I agree that even after a settlement is reached it could take a couple generations of peaceful coexistence for the level of trust to build to the point where a closer relationship could be forged. Keep in mind that any relationship would be predicated on the establishment of an independent Palestinian state first. And then as a first step economic union, which would be essentially maintaining the current economic status quo. Economic cooperation is always a good idea where possible but if a Palestinian state is economically severed from Israel and then tied to Jordan (shared currency and infrastructure) then the chance of a closer relationship in the future, even the distant future is less likely. I am not sure Jordanian confederation is necessarily a better situation from a security standpoint either. And for those who are even more skeptical, keep in mind the old adage: keep you friends close and your enemies closer.

Noga, I do hope that Ramzi is not the exception. I don’t claim to know what is in the hearts of all Palestinians but from what I have seen and read, it does appear that a majority are tired of the fighting and would like nothing better than to get on with their lives. The rational people and those tired of conflict know what the solution is…the only issue now is how to get there. Hamas’ victory in Gaza complicates the situation but a common enemy is sometimes all you need to build new alliances. The biggest problem at this point is expectations not the number of people who want an agreement. The Palestinian leadership has done nothing to prepare their people for a realistic peace. Over the years they have made promises that they know they cannot keep. This is the biggest obstacle to an agreement at this point in my opinion (at least with a Fatah controlled West Bank), not the lack of desire for peace.

Yaeli – I’ve read the inability of Lebanon to enter any of the Palestinian camps has its legality from an Arab League accord which Lebanon agreed to.

Raccoon – Hudna, as I understood its explanation is a temporary truce – until opportunity appears favourable to success and then all bets are off.

B.V. Initial reports I read of Fatah al Islam strength was estimated at 250 – 300. They may indeed have had a few additional outside supports come in. But as you say, that is a difficult type of warfare; conventional militia against dedicated causists. Your example of Israeli troops being set upon in winding streets and homes where Arafat was holed up years ago a case in point. You can go back to biblical times and see Jews fighting just such wars against Syrian troops: think The Hammer.

Corey: Published in the National Post today, Matthew Fisher reporting from Nablus, West Bank:
“Gaza has always had more clan and tribal troubles than the West Bank, since the enclave was an artificial construct that took in most of its peoples as refugees from places that are now part of Israel. The West Bank has refugees too, but most communities there have family roots that go back centuries.
“The West Bank has become relatively affluent because unlike Gaza, it has much better land, and therefore sustainable agriculture, and has much better educated people who, not uncoincidentally, have many prosperous relatives in Western countries such as Canada and the United States.
“West Bankers are also more pragmatic than Gazans. The reasons for this are many, but, it must be said, one of the factors has been that Palestinians in the West Bank are generally far less pious Muslims than Gazans.
“All this suggests the possibility that despite sharp differences over the presence of Israeli troops in the West Bank, and the more than 400,000 Jewish settlers who live there and in East Jerusalem, there may be some common ground between Israel and West Bank Palestinians that could lead to fruitful discussions.
“Several Palestinians took me aside in Nablus’s crowded Old Quarter last week to whisper that they were overjoyed to finally be rid of the Gazans, with their harsh views on women, alcohol, Western education and culture, the Internet and so much else.
“However, that these folks, in one of the few places where Hamas may be stronger than Fatah in the West Bank, felt that they still had to whisper their opinions tells its own story. this game is not quite over yet.

Lynne, if the world were populated with more people who reflect your ever-hopeful consciousness of society, with your sunny disposition, we might end up with a boringly peaceful world. Wouldn’t that be a true tragedy!

Ramzi,

The only way for the Palestinian “street” to gain normalcy is for Abbas to control the weapons in the street. I hate to disappoint you, but there are plenty of “Fatah” related militias which are not much better than Hamas, and as long as they have weapons, it is the same thing. The Palestinian Authority has failed at governance, period.
The withdrawal from Gaza, which could and should have been the turning point in the relations between the Palestinian and Israeli people, was hijacked by the Palestinian street.

To be truthful, Israel has not had anyone with whom to negotiate.
It really does not matter if it has been a lack of ability or lack of a will by the Palestinian Authority – nothing was done to control the “militants”,
or as I see them, the common Islamofascist thugs. The Arab world created a Frankenstein, and it got out of control.
Palestinian society nurtured the children on hatred and violence – the distance between killing a Jew or a fellow Palestinian is very short.

You mentioned lynching of Jews – need I remind you of Ramallah a few years ago, where 2 reservists were lynched?
And as for Abbas being moderate, well, I guess everything is relative. Not too long ago he stated that while he recognizes
Israel’s de facto existance, he does not recognize Israel’s RIGHT to exist.

Host: “But maybe Hamas is right that it does not want to recognize Israel.”

Abbas: “Hamas is not required, Hamas is not required to recognize Israel… It is not required of Hamas, nor of Fatah, nor of the Popular Front to recognize Israel. Okay?”

“The PLO, in 1993, recognized Israel as Israel recognized the PLO. Every person has the right to say ‘I do not recognize.’ Okay? It’s your right. It is the right of every organization. But the government which will be formed, and which will function opposite the Israelis on a daily basis… [every hour and perhaps every second, there will be contact between Palestinian ministers and Israeli ministers. And I ask] how can this government, or these ministers, not recognize their counterparts, and then solve people’s problems?” [Abbas then gives an example of 500 million dollars in taxes intended for the Palestinians, but put on hold by Israelis]. “The Palestinian finance minister has to come to an agreement with the Israeli finance minister about the transfer of the money. So how can he make an agreement with him if he does not recognize him?

“So I do not demand of Hamas nor any other to recognize Israel. But from the government that works with Israelis in day to day life, yes.”

[Al-Arabiya [Dubai] and Palestinian TV, October 3, 2006]

Ramzi, all I can say is that I hope for the sake of the Palestinian people that what happened in Gaza was a wakeup call.
And this has nothing to do with achieving peace with Israel – it has to do with your society.

As you stated, Al-Aqsa TV has been poisoning the children’s mind – and has created a monster.
However, Palestinian Authority TV is not much better. Please don’t be so disingenious.
Here are just a few links:

http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480×360.asp?ai=214&ar=669wmv&ak=null
http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480×360.asp?ai=214&ar=847wmv&ak=null
http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480×360.asp?ai=214&ar=258wmv&ak=null
http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480×360.asp?ai=214&ar=206wmv&ak=null

Plenty more examples are available.

P

Ramzi, thanks for the information on the new government! I am feeling very encouraged and optimistic, for a change.
Rita, interesting information in your comment–and thank you for your kind words

Raccoon,

First of all, i’m Palestinian..whether christian or Muslim isn’t the question du jour at all…

Do you have any proof about the PA TV’s ( other than hamas ones…) talking about the Hudna as a religious thing ? It never was treated as anything religious, it was as simple as saying ” ceasefire” …and the press i read ( read by millions dialy) always talked about ” Waqf itlaq nar” as in ” Ceasefire” , and sometimes replaced the word with Hudna , which means the same thing when it’s used in a secular context… it’s also very important to note that in the context of the middle east the religious debate is always there, there is always someone, yes, even israeli, who will mention religion, But the official stance was and will stay always clear, if you have proofs of the contrary, please redirect me …. The PA media you are talking about is not the PA media that i see and hear everyday, it’s probably the PA media of PMW and of all these militant groups …

and allow me to quote you :

” Then again… believe what you want. Pretend what you want. Reality will remain reality. “

Benjamin: Just so. Amen

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