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U.S. Plans $20 Billion Arms Sale to Saudi Arabia…

President George W. Bush is asking Congress to approve a $20 billion arms deal with Saudi Arabia and neighboring Gulf states. I have to ask, what is he thinking? Saudi Arabia, next to Iran, has the most foreign fighters in…

Ramz, this is such a thought-provoking post. I read it this morning and have been thinking about it all day as I ran around town. I’m going to respond more fully tomorrow when I have a bit more time for a more detailed response. In the meantime had to say how much I enjoyed reading it and how much it has got me thinking

What I make of things is that the July-August heat and the situation has boiled many people’s brains. Some have suddenly acted constructively (it’s about time! keep going) while others have acted brutally and idiotically. Still other behavior is simply bizarre.

Not all AAMB members are giving up their arms. The ones who don’t must be arrested immediately. The ones who do must be provided with ordinary jobs quickly; they’ve been acting as gangsters, self-appointed vigilantes and mercenary terrorists, and those habits are hard to break. They’re tired and disheartened and shocked by the Gaza coup but once they’ve rested they’ll be idle terrorists, and idle terrorists cause all kinds of trouble in the middle east. Fayyad knows this.

What’s going on is mostly still shock and panic, the sudden collapse of illusions to the extent that even passive leaders are forced to change direction in a radical way, because if they don’t they’re afraid that their own followers will kill them. Whether Abbas has finally gotten off his tuchus of his own accord, or whether he’s being dragged along by an utterly terrified Fatah leadership, at least he’s doing something.

It’s kind of odd to see Abbas promising to implement the recommendations of the Winograd commission, errrrrrrrr I mean the Amr panel.

HAMAS and its shadowy proxies, of course, don’t want to see progress. What they are doing at the moment is driving the wedge deeper between Gaza and the WB. They seem determined continuing to dig Gaza deeper into the hole in which they seem committed to burying it. And Fatah Gazans are eager to deeper “>help them.

On the Israeli side, at least the public-sector strike is over.

Please note that the “constructive” behavior I’m talking about is this:

On Friday, Fayad’s government published its platform, which does not include any reference to the mukawama (a term generally associated with armed struggle) against Israel.

and NOT the PRC threat to assassinate Fayyad.

Here is a great video about Islam
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4878939598208525051

Author’s Note : Stan, that’s me RAMZI, such videos and such attitude are not tolerated on this Blog , i won’t remove it from here because i want it to serve as an example of what is NOT tolerated! …. Besides, i don’t see how your Link can feed the debate , it has no relation with the whole post whatsoever.

Zvi

Allow me to not agree with you over the issue of the Al Aqsa Martyrs , these people are not ” Terrorists” , some of them are crazy, just like the Israeli soldiers who kidnapped a Taxi driver and shot a youth for fun two days ago, Unlike Hamas and PRC, these people didn’t start shooting out of a blue sky for theological reasons, i surely don’t agree with their Methods, i don’t agree with what they used, but they are the palestinian version of the french ” Resistance” , the french resistance wasn’t that clean either, the moment unorganized people get armed and are under occupation , chaos is a a natural result! …

I can understand that as an Israeli, you will never accept what i’m saying, but as a palestinian, i will never accept the wording ” Terrorists” that seems to have lost all its limits and lost its real definition ( thanks to Bush and Co.) .
On the Palestinian streets, we view the Al Aqsa Martyrs as part of our palestinian Army, a lot of us don’t agree with what they have done, with the way they have decided to fight, but these people were the ” Rock childrens” of the first intifada and their goals are nothing but national, their stance is clear : No Occupation will be tolerated inside the West Bank and Gaza, they are as opposed as Meretz to the Settelments, they can’t just let the Israeli army enter our territories, meaning to Capture and kill people , without stopping it! I mean, these are things to be expected! You don’t really know what is happening inside the territories , you don’t know how we are treated by your soldiers, on a day to day basis! Everywhere!

Yesterday, an Israeli friend of mine ( illegaly) visited bethlehem for the first time, i took her for a tour around the place, around the district, first of all, she was very shocked by the People’s behaviour, some of them knew that she was israeli and welcomed her very warmly.. She is nothing close to a peace activist, she voted Sharon a few years ago… when she saw all the walls, the barriers, the growing Settlements, the checkpoints, the stranded villages , the Poverty of some people, the way the israeli army is surrounding us , etc… she was in a state of shock! she said ” Why don’t we know all this ? in Israel, we believe that you live like us and that you are as free as us and that Checkpoints only block terrorists while letting everyone else pass” , she asked me ” Why is this village surrounded by barriers like that ? ” i said ” It’s Hussam, a palestinian village, they surrounded it with barbed wire because they built 4 settelment ( ILLEGAL outpost) houses in front of it , she couldn’t believe it, so i took her to the Entance of that UGLY little settelment … she was very shocked and couldn’t believe her eyes…

She was like ” Where are these people going to live ? The village can’t grow because the barbed wire surrounds it firmly and tightly!” … When she said this, i showed her Bethlehem from the top of a mountain, Bethlehem is even more surrounded, by WALLS! not Barbed wires, walls! there isn’t any possible growth possibility, any possible Bypass road or whatever… then i took her to my house, since 3 weeks ago, my house has it’s own wall enclave, we are totally surrounded…. Back to the Al Aqsa people, when they see all this, it’s very difficult to Love israel, it’s very difficult not to wish that all this stops as soon as possible, it’s very difficult to accept it, it’s even Impossible! .. using the word ” Terrorists” became very easy lately and i kind of hate it! Believe me, the Al Aqsa Martyrs didn’t do as much atrocities as your army has done over here! Each time an innocent person gets killed, they call it ” colateral damage” and everyone forgets about it the next day, when one israeli is killed by the Aqsa people, whether he is a Soldier Inside the territories, or outside, or a civilian, the outcome is the same : ” Terrorism”… Why do you expect us to accept the presence of your armed soldiers on our territories without resisting them ? a Soldier has a huge chance of getting killed in the Battle, it’s kind of his job to fight and to accept to get killed, Violence brings violence, it’s not a secret! You just know what your media wants you to know, and all it wants you to believe is that ” Every palestinian holding a gun is a terrorist” , it’s not true, some of them, no matter how small their number is, are Resistance people who believe in peace ! Again, i am personally VERY VERY opposed to the use of weapons whether by Israel or by us … it’s just that , if you want to refer to all or most of the Armed palestinians as Terrorists, then the same definition works for the Israeli army …

Ramzi ya Ramzi…

Here’s a little partial list of AAMB from recent years:
* An October 2005 suicide attack at the Gush Etzion junction that killed three Israelis and wounded three others
* A March 2004 suicide bombing at a checkpoint at the Port of Ashdod that killed ten people
* A January 2004 attack on a bus in Rehavia, Jerusalem that killed eleven people
* Two January 2003 suicide bombings in Tel Aviv that killed 23 people and injured approximately 100 more
* A November 2002 shooting spree at a kibbutz in northern Israel that killed five Israelis and wounded seven more
* A March 2002 suicide bombing in Jerusalem that killed three Israelis
* A March 2002 suicide bombing in a Jerusalem café that killed 11 Israelis and wounded more than 50
* A March 2002 sniper attack on an Israeli army checkpoint in the West Bank that killed 10 Israelis
* A January 2002 suicide attack in Jerusalem that killed one person and wounded some 40 others

Now for the definition of terrorism… the one I find most acceptable is the one used by the UN:

“Terrorism is an anxiety-inspiring method of repeated violent action, employed by (semi-) clandestine individual, group or state actors, for idiosyncratic, criminal or political reasons, whereby — in contrast to assassination — the direct targets of violence are not the main targets. The immediate human victims of violence are generally chosen randomly (targets of opportunity) or selectively (representative or symbolic targets) from a target population, and serve as message generators. Threat- and violence-based communication processes between terrorist (organization), (imperilled) victims, and main targets are used to manipulate the main target (audience(s)), turning it into a target of terror, a target of demands, or a target of attention, depending on whether intimidation, coercion, or propaganda is primarily sought (Schmid, 1988).”
source

“Resistance” against random women and children? Yes, of course. I though you were in possession of more sanity and morality.

A reply for your obvious reply – there is no comparison whatsoever between IDF actions and those of Palestinian terrorists. The moment an organization has targeted random civilians on purpose, it becomes a terrorist organization.

About the oh-so-horrible oppression of the poor Palestinians…

Next time, maybe the Palestinians should consider not trying to genocide a people and to destroy a state. It sort of, you know, makes the targets of these clearly righteous intentions somewhat… unhappy. Can’t imagine why really.

But since this is apparently too much to ask for (given the charter of Hamas, Fatah and pretty much any other Palestinian organization), perhaps Palestinians might consider learning how to become gracious losers. For instance, when the next genocide/state-destruction attempt fails, how about not trying to blow up the civilians of the intended target of the failed attempt? And maybe sort of accepting a state when it’s given to you, despite your repeated attempts at said clearly righteous actions (just a reminder, in case you’ve missed it – the intended action was genocide and the destruction of a state). Or how about stopping the attempted genocide/state-destruction after you’ve lost? It might, you know, sort of make the intended targets of your little prank less inimical to you.

But then again, this, alas, appears to be too much out of character for the Palestinians.

Oh, I am sorry, I have infringed once again upon the immaculate purity of the noble Palestinian people? Please forgive me and continue to ignore all of the above, as always.

Just don’t be surprised if we’ll wake up and after the next inevitable genocide attempt will do it the Arab way, eh?

How did that word go again… ah yes, Sahel.

Ok Raccoon….

First of all, my morality and my sanity are not our subject….so whether i have a lot or too little of them both, it’s my very own business as long as i don’t hurt anyone in the process….

For your list of Al Aqsa Martyrs attacks,I can give you a similar, if not a bigger list of Israeli actions in the territories, as ugly and as disgusting as the ones you mentionned, what you view as terrorism and what i view as terrorism seem to slightly differ…again, that’s me being Palestinian and you being Israeli…

Some Israeli actions fall in the UN’s definition of Terrorism….But we better not start talking about the UN…it’s another story…

just sit there and relax and be sure that i don’t approve whatever armed people do, i just insist on minimizing this Sharon reality-effect of ” They all are terrorists” … You don’t know what happens over here, you don’t know how your lovely soldiers act , you have no idea whatsoever so just stop defending them! I know very well what my people do, i don’t defend their ugly acts, so just stop talking about the ” Oppression of poor palestinians” because, denying and making fun of pains is even more horrible than provoking them ….

So! And when am I going to be toured through Bethlehem ? :p

Anyway, it’s time to look forward I think. Not at the past, but the future. If we keep looking at who did what in the past all the time we won’t get any further in a positive way.

Tsedek,

You will get your Tour whenever you want! You are more than welcome ! I’m here till the 11th of August! it’s important to note that There are the Ugly things, but there are olso very very wonderful things to see!

As for the Moving Forward part, well… i guess that we should drop our laundry lists once and for all! … That’s the reason why i don’t have any desire to start formulating an exhaustive list of all the Israeli actions in the territories and all the ” Collateral damage” that has been caused …. it’s completely irrelevant…

And here we go again.

Ramzi, ya khabibi… told you a number of times – I do know. My info is not coming from the media. I don’t trust the media. I have spent about 5 minutes writing about why I think the current miserable situation of the Palestinians is very reasonable – much much better than one would have expected -, effectively refuting your answer preemptively.

I have also preemptively refuted your stock “moral equivalence” answer. This has nothing to do with me being Israeli and you Palestinian.
This has everything to do, though, with the most basic laws of warfare, ethics and morality, formulated throughout the long and bloody history of civilization;

From the massacre of Benyamin tribe, through the slaughter of Amalek, to Alexander putting Gaza to the sword, the burning of Alexandria, the Battle of Thermopylae, the destruction of Baghdad, the Pictish genocide, Attila the Scourge of God, the fall of Maghada, the conquest and genocide of India by the Muslims, the bloody period of the Five Kingdoms, the Crusades, the 100 Years War – the whole godsdamned bloodsoaked history of hunamkind, the long parade of war, rape, destruction, genocide and devastation – all the way to the Rape of Nanking, Unit 731, Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Battle of Stalingrad, the Holocaust, Darfur, Rwanda, Srebrenica, the Anfal Campaign… this is just the tip of the iceberg, in no particular order, of the string of atrocities we call History. Actual History, not the revisionist crap that’s so popular today.

And this ties into my next point. If you don’t know where you’re coming from, how can you be sure of where you’re going? Why on Earth do you and Tsedek think that mass amnesia is a good thing? Those that ignore history are doomed to repeat it. As I have demonstrated above, that would NOT be a good thing.

Now, about humor…

http://www.flickr.com/photos/amitai/sets/72057594067999377

If you can’t laugh about it, Ramzi, you are in the realm of blind dogma. And, as the Erisian dogma goes, “Once dogma enters the mind, thought leaves”.

In the meanwhile, I suggest that you should have some fun. That is, if you don’t know Nizo yet. He’s a great guy.

Yalla, enough of me playing verbal squash with myself

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3431077,00.html … a very interesting editorial…

Raccoon and Ramzi: I wanted to post my comments before now, but was traveling and could not manage it.
You both make good points in your comments. Raccoon, I agree completely with you in the distinction that you make between legitimate resistance tactics and terrorism. And, until recently, there were not overtures toward peace or even a place to begin with some of the vocal Palestinian groups calling for the murder of every Jewish man, woman and child, and backing these words up with terrorist actions.
You both agree that violence against members of each group is unacceptable and leads to misery of the most acute degree, and that we seem to be moving toward cooperation and a goal of peace between these two groups who have been enemies for much too long. You say so now, and this has been your stance always on this blog. It seems that you are in agreement here completely. Terrorism against civilians is indefensible (and frankly, I think that military action should be always a last resort and that dialogue should be the first means of conflict resolution—I believe that we mostly agree on this.) IDF soldiers, the Palestinian people, Israeli citizens have all suffered to an extreme degree from this terrible conflict. I don’t think that this can be disputed by anyone. Interference from outside from those who would perpetuate this hardship and tragedy is much to blame. It seems that there may be a chance now with Fayad and Abbas to resolve the issues that would lead to peace.
Ramzi, your words so much encourage me, especially your last statement:
“…eversince Mahmoud Abbas took back the control of the Pal. TV, i started watching it carefully and you really can’t say that it’s calling for the killing of anyone…on the contrary…”
Those of us who support a reasonable and just solution in the conflict between Israel and the Palestinian people, have not heard much from moderate Palestinian voices calling for peace with Israel. It is good to be hearing those now.

Ay that’s so sweet, Ramzi
I see what I can do, would love to go to Bethlehem again!

Ramzi, a few comments.

I respect your right to support independence for the Palestinians (and I think I’ve said before that I support a separate Palestinian state, with credible evidence that it will be committed to peaceful coexistence beside Israel and capable of ensuring that this happens).

I have never been a supporter of settlements or settlement policies, and have for years been disgusted that settler groups, for reasons that vary from fanaticism to greed to stubbornness to anger, and empowered by their swing votes in consecutive Israeli governments over a period of years, have been able to do as much damage as they have done over the years.

I also call things as I see them, and in my comment above, I referred to the recent actions of the IDF platoon as “brutality” and “idiocy”. I condemn their actions without reservation or hesitation. On the other hand, these guys have been suspended and arrested and are going to be tried for kidnapping, hijacking and the murder of an innocent civilian. That is what a government, a military, is supposed to do when it finds out that something like this happened.

In contrast, the AAMB, whatever romantic image it has in the Palestinian street, is an organization which, from top to bottom, over and over again, in word and in deed, has reiterated that the murder of innocent Israeli civilians is not an unfortunate accident but rather a planned objective, and that the deaths of these civilians, whether men, women, kids or babies, is a cause for celebration rather than arrest or sorrow. The victims of AAMB have overwhelmingly been Israeli civilians, not soldiers. The acts of terrorism listed by the Raccoon are only the tip of the iceberg; they are the big ones that succeeded, whereas the majority of terror attacks against Israelis are thwarted by the very security measures, including arrest raids and the construction of the checkpoints, that Palestinians hate so much.

Together with the actions of Islamic Jihad and HAMAS, the acts of terrorism conducted by the AAMB, and sponsored by the Fatah higher-ups who created the AAMB as a Fatah-controlled alternative to HAMAS, have, by the way, done incalculable long-term harm to your dream of a free state, by convincing even many mainstream Israelis that it simply isn’t safe to let you have what you want.

I agree that there is blame to go around for everyone, but greed, arrogance, evil and stupidity have not been limited to the settlers either, or indeed to any of the rest of us. Settlers are certainly not solely to blame for escalating tensions, or for the hatred of Palestinians; there are plenty of thugs on the Palestinian side who have profited from all of this, or who have simply been allowed to exercise their lust for bloodshed, and who would rather you didn’t look too closely at their records. And the AAMB, and your leadership, have had a choice.

Well, Arafat chose violence again in 2000. Abbas chose not to end it, until it bit him. But now Fayyad, or Abbas, or someone, seems to be acting more wisely. I’m wishing them good luck on that, and on tackling the corruption within Fatah that has been another wholly unnecessary engine of growth in the conflict.

I recognize that you personally don’t approve of the methods that some of your people are using. That’s a good thing. You haven’t thrown away the thing that is most precious of all.

Say, was my comment moderated away or what?

Zvi,
I agree with you on many points : We had , until very recently, a very disturbing situation of lawlessness in the WestBank , armed men contributed to this…but that’s no surprise, when you are surrounded, poor , desperate , young and armed… you become also chaotic, disturbed, depressed and dangerous… anyways, these people gained back my respect once they showed their will to give up their weapons in order to get back to a Normal life, they showed their desire to live normally and they showed the they were psychologically fit …many of them made their Mea Culpa without getting any amnesty from Israel, and this is something i respect! No matter why they did this, they just did it and we all have to help them to make it last!

As for the horrible acts of the israeli soldiers, believe me, the number of investigated incidents is nothing but a little tiny fraction of all the things that happen and that nobody knows off .. Power corrupts! From my personal daily experience, i can tell you that many many many of the soldiers i’m forced to meet daily are Racist, Violent, Mean, Act on their Own and don’t follow any law when dealing with us, their Finger is always on the trigger and they enjoy humiliating us! Especially the Druze and the Bedouin ones! they are the WORSE ! the most disgusting, and the most violent, followed by the Ehtiopians…. The ones of European origines are the ones who usually follow the law, and the Russians are not that bad but they have a tendancy to YELL quite easily …. If i’m telling you all this, it’s just to show you that over here, every palestinian has a story of an incident with an israeli soldier… if your state is going to start investigating all the incidents seriously, believe me israel will get into a shock that it will never recover from! I just wish to hear one israeli, other than the Extreme leftists , saying ” yes, Maybe they are right” …after all, that’s part of Making Peace!

Ramzi… I want to let you in on a secret…

Each and every one of these evil, evil soldiers has had a friend or family member who was killed or maimed by Palestinians. Each individual soldier there was probably attacked at some point by a normal-looking Palestinians. Each and every one of them hates the fact that he has to make sure Palestinians do not kill or maim any more of their family, rather than working, studying or just chilling out on a nice beach somewhere.

This somehow doesn’t arouse feelings of brotherly love towards the Palestinians in this. Especially when they know that if the average Palestinian could, the particular soldier, his family and everyone he knows would die a painful death. I know it’s hard to imagine… must be a Joo thing.

And as for the Druze and the Bedouins… just read up on their long and fruitful history of brotherly love with your immaculate, non-terrorist, heroically resisting compatriots. And add it to the above, minus the Jewish ultra-peaceful education, and you’ll get people who love Palestinians more than they love themselves.

Have we not been over this before?

Ah yes. We have. A number of times.

To conclude -

We’ve all served. We know it’s a tough break for the Palestinians. But it’s kind of difficult to feel sympathy for people who’d kill you and everyone you know and love if only they could. I mean, they can’t but they’re still trying. Hint – it’s not a bloody endearing quality.

We have this strange problem with people who want to genocide us.

” To Genocide us” …. WOW ! NO COMMENT….
” if the average Palestinian could” Raccoon , you don’t even have an idea about who is the ” Average palestinian” …. It’s easy to talk…believe me it is ….
Ok, at this point, all i can tell you Raccoon is that all those who hold guns in the PA have at least AT LEAST one family member in an israeli prison, another one killed, another one injured , a wanted one…etc….Etc….And you can be sure that hundreds or even thousands of them were very innocent in the first place but were victims of the uninvestigated Collateral damages caused by your army …. now who started all this ? it’s the story of the Chicken and the Egg…. I believe it’s your side you believe that it’s my side… so there is no use in trying to figure this out, however, what we can do is to try and look towards the future!

Ramzi -

It is highly irrelevant who started what. Although that would make for an interesting debate.

The point is – as always – that had the Palestinian people wanted a state AND to live peacefully with Israel, it would have been achieved very, very quickly. It’s easy. All it takes is even the slightest whisper of a will for it… and the understanding that you can’t have one without the other.

There is, as I have said before, the glimmer of a beginning of something that might, one day, if nurtured for a long while, possibly become the bud from which the first ray of hope can, perhaps, emerge. The man responsible for this is Salam Fayyad.

But even in the unlikely case that the miracle that would be this distant possibility of hope should come to pass, it’ll take centuries for anything even remotely approaching normalization to become possible.

Well…ok…i think that we are showing you the will of wanting a State, eventhough you should stop seeing it as a Favor, we are not asking you for any favors, it’s just our right…. Let’s see how easy it will be … Let’s see if anyone will have the guts to divide Jerusalem, to give up many many many settelments, to compensate many refugees, and to accept to give us our frontiers with jordan and egypt, to give us an Air Space, to allow us to build a sea Port and an Airport….and so on…

On the other hand, we should make sure that the security of all the states around us is safeguarded by our frontier guards, just as the countries around us should make sure that nobody from their side would attack us! Nothing but normal international relations ….

Ramzi – all this and more was offered. Repeatedly. The Palestinian answer was – invariably – terror, death, murder, psychosis, lies, chaos, hatred, destruction, rape and things of such ilk. Every single bloody time.

Believe you me, the Israelis are bloody sick and tired of the Palestinians. The sooner Palestinians will have their own state, the merrier – the financial, emotional, educational, medical, burial and other costs associated with preventing the Palestinians from blowing up are not something Israel needs.

All the Palestinians have to do is two things:
Desire a state.
Realize that they cannot have a state without being a peaceful neighbor to Israel.

At no time in history has a vanquished genocidal enemy been treated so kindly or offered so much. And at no time has a vanquished genocidal enemy been allowed to live while it continued to be a genocidal enemy.

BTW, I don’t think that a people who have tried to repeatedly genocide another people and failed – again and again and again – have any rights but the right to an unconditional capitulation.

To demand anything else is sheer insolence.

It’s funny Raccoon. I’m active on dutch forums and there the tendency usually is opposite: “Israel stole the land of the Palestinians and therefore it should be grateful they have a state now and should abide by “all the UN resolutions” etc…”

I’m just mentioning this because it’s a strong tendency in where the ‘have to be grateful-thing’ shifts. (Not that we have anything to do with the Netherlands, but still.. )

unconditional capitulation ?? something like the First World War’s DIKTAT ??? no thanks… Why do you always need to keep the Highs ??? Why do you need to always feel victorious ?

As for us trying to genocide you as you keep claiming, wow! are we really trying to genocide you ? you have no idea about us … No matter where you read your news, you clearly have no idea about who you are dealing with! …

Hi, guys. Let’s rein in the anger a bit.

Ramzi is not a mass murderer and he has repeatedly said that he is against the murder of civilians. I don’t recall him saying at any point that his experiences justify the actions of terrorists, nor have I heard him calling for the destruction of Israel. He is mostly pleading for understanding of the Palestinians’ anger. He has made some comparisons that are invalid. But he also said:

“these people gained back my respect once they showed their will to give up their weapons”

The key word here is back.

I agree that Palestinians’ experiences justify anger and the results of anger can be bad and can include stupid, destructive behavior. I obviously reject any claim that this makes it okay to commit suicide bombings or that the people who order such things are good people. Where I differ from Ramzi is that he does not want to consider the AAMB as an institution to be tainted by its planned, deliberate adoption of terrorism as a means to its end. I obviously differ on this point.

The Heroic Resistance

I also note that some violent Palestinian groups are basically just street gangs hiding behind nationalist or Islamist causes. In Gaza, various Fatah groups were essentially drug smuggling gangs. In the WB, “resistance” gunmen in certain areas have a peculiar affinity for local car theft rings. And then there are groups like the notorious Army of Islam, run by Gaza’s Dughmush clan.

Soldiers:

Yes, I believe that power corrupts. That’s true everywhere. So do abuses happen? Yes. Are they always successfully investigated and prosecuted? No.

In the AAMB and similar groups, however, the most grotesque abuses not only happen, but are ordered at the highest levels, and there is no risk that the gunmen will be jailed for committing them.

Since we’re talking about understanding, most of the Israeli soldiers manning that checkpoint don’t have a stake in humiliating Palestinians. Most of them would rather be somewhere else. At the beach. With their girlfriends. Somewhere else. But unless they want their girlfriends to be blown up by psychopaths with suicide bombs, Israelis currently need to do things like manning checkpoints.

You (Palestinians) don’t like them. They know it. Some of you are trying to kill them. They know that too. Some of you have killed some of their friends/family, and the guys who did that didn’t wear uniforms or function as an army, but rather wore civilian clothes, just like you, and used people like you as shields for their intentions and their bodies.

And the Druzim in the border police, for instance, know that they have historically been special targets of people like that, and that most of the rest of you hate them with an extra passion. They hate you back. (This, of course, is a generalization. There are people in all groups who act horribly, and others who always try to act decently).

The use of terrorism always breeds contempt, hatred and violence by those against whom terrorism is used, and this ends up hurting the people whom the terrorists claimed to want to help, in this way as in many others. Would there be some serious attitude problems without it? Yes. Would things be anywhere near as bad as they are now? No.

Does that make it okay for an Israeli soldier to do what the platoon did? Of course not. Does what the platoon did justify an AAMB rocket fired at Sderot? Of course not.

Genocide:

It has indeed been tried, and as we listen to HAMAS, we hear that the dream of slaughtering us sons of monkeys and pigs is still very much alive. Do you personally believe in it? Obviously not. Are there those who do? Of course there are. Is genocidal slaughter the policy of the new Fayyad-Abbas government? Doesn’t sound like it. Are there members of Fatah’s AAMB who would do it if they could? Of course. Are there others who wouldn’t? Possibly.

Fayyad:

The Palestinians have historically been betrayed, more than anything else, by some of the worst leadership in the world. Arafat, in particular, did far more damage to Palestinians than the events of 1948.

However, I have to say that thus far, Salam Fayyad has won my respect.

Fayyad is the first top-level Palestinian leader who did not gain power through historic or current participation in a paramilitary/terrorist organization. This, coupled with his rational actions and his activist stance toward solving dangerous problems gives me a bit of hope that the Palestinians, at least in the WB, may have turned a corner, and may now start to make choices that allow us all to move forward instead of spinning in the crazy old cyclone of blood and destruction.

Fayyad acts as though he intends to build an actual state instead of a personal mafia.

I hope it’s true. I hope it continues.

What is also lost in the discussion above is that none of us – not I, not the Raccoon (as far as I know) – wants to be in the WB. The fact that it’s incredibly risky for Israel to withdraw, and the fact that there is anger on this thread, reflects the greedy and stupid and hateful and violent things that have been done, which have pushed apart even people who probably agree pretty closely in terms of what we actually want.

With greater wisdom, we can all do better.

Ramzi -

Official Palestinian media (there is no other kind, is there?) is where I get this stuff. Hamas, Fateh, all that. It’s not exactly a bloody secret, now innit? In case you were wondering, destroying Israel and “throwing the Jews into the sea” counts as genocide. Maybe the term is unclear?

It’s not that I need to feel victorious… it’s just that there are certain facts of life that I acknowledge. When one refuse to accept a state and chooses to try and genocide the Jews instead (’48), it’s an attempted genocide. When one fails in that endeavor (noble and immaculate, of course, since the then-non-existent Palestinians were involved) – hey, it was obviously a failure, seeing as Israel is still here and so are the Jews – and loses territory in the process, it counts as a loss for the would-be genociders and a victory for the defenders.

Rinse and repeat a few times, and you get the brief Jewish-Arab history of the 20th century. A pretty clear cut picture, bro. Had we lost even once, we’d be dead. I’d be dead. My wife would be dead. My family would be dead. Her family would be dead. My friends would be dead. We ain’t.

Sorry, bro, but maybe it’s time Palestinians should drop the “narrative” and deal with the facts for once. It does wonders for one’s wellbeing.

Tse – great for them. Do they also say that since the Jews were destroying Germany, we should be lucky any of us survived? Stupidity, ignorance and oh-so-fashionable political correctness are hardly the ideal basis for an opinion. Did you tell your friends this?

Do you think they’ll enjoy their status as dhimmis, slaves or corpses when they’re living under Sharia?

Raccoon…
Official Palestinian Media ? … Palestine TV … ( not al Aqsa TV) …Al Quds News paper… al Hayat il Jadida News Paper … that’s the palestinian official media and you seem to be the only one getting your news from the Palestine TV…because we personally don’t… and when i say WE , i mean US the palestinians! We get our news from the Al Quds News Paper, from Panorama … from the Translation of the ISraeli Newspapers offered by Maan News Agency on 500 Radion and TV stations all around the country
Anyway, eversince Mahmoud Abbas took back the control of the Pal. TV , i started watching it carefully and you really can’t say that it’s calling for the killing of anyone …on the contrary….

My comment which should have been listed last appeared in the middle of the comment section. Anybody know why that happened?

Yeah, Lynne. Mine appeared above 2 others that I thought were published afterward. I think. Maybe they had been moderated. Or mine was.

Anyway I wanted to remind R & R that they probably agree on many more points than they disagree. Don’t lose track of that in discussing points of frustration. See my comment above. Also see Lynne’s comment (far) above.

A separate update: Fayyad has been hammered and threatened with physical violence by Palestinian terror groups for his apparently sane positions regarding so-called “resistance.” As a result he backed off of his courageous policies and returned to the fold by voicing support for the right to “resistance” without making plain that terrorism against civilians is not a legitimate form of resistance.

Israeli officials appeared to be understanding of his backtracking.

Unfortunately, until it is possible for statements “for internal Palestinian” consumption to be as sane as statements meant for the rest of the world, Palestinian society will not recover from the parasitic terror groups that have been feeding upon it.

I think (and hope) that Fayyad is trying to do the right things, and it seems clear that he’s doing so from purely patriotic and sensible reasons. But that a bunch of foreign-sponsored terrorists, many of
whom recently committed treason against their own Authority, can browbeat and threaten the Palestinian prime minister himself into airing justifications of their violence shows how grim the situation really is, and makes it less likely that actual, practical measures to curb such violence will succeed.

Nevertheless I still see Fayyad as a stronger character than Abbas and more honest than the Fatah senior leadership. I hope I can still say that in a year’s time. Best of luck and health to him.

Zvi, yes, I agree completely. I do see Fayyad as reasonable and sane. I hope that his vision for the Palestinian people will prevail, and if it does not, this may mean more violence and terror for everyone. Perhaps he will be able to lead those who have been mired in hatred to more sane attitudes and actions. I believe that Abbas has wanted and needed someone like Fayyad to bolster his own position and to make it possible for him to move the process forward toward peace and away from despair. Together, they may be able to accomplish much. I hope so!
Yes, Ramzi and Raccoon do agree on the essential matters, I believe.
It is difficult not to get discouraged and frustrated at times. Sometimes it is hard to hold on to hope.
I don’t think that our comments were moved by the moderator. Mine seemed to jump into the middle immediately.

In the recent Turkish elections, the Islamic party won big time. Having seen that, I think it’s safe to say that Islamic country is what the Turkish people want. After all, this is what the democratic system is all about. You get what you elect. If it works out poorly, the people there needs to take responsibility. If it works out great, good for them.

The same goes for the Palestinians and their election of Hamas. The reasons for electing Hamas does not matter. The election does.

Therefore, claims like the ones made by Ramzi that are irrelevant. They only mean that Ramzi is not representing the Palestinians will.

And therefore, it is safe to say that we will witness another pathetic attempt by the Palestinian authority to govern just a little longer. Another colossal failure by Faayad. And the loss of more lives and futures.

And this will go on and on until the Palestinian will prefer having a country over the destruction of Israel. As long as the second option will rank higher, nothing will change.

Btw, I’ve read an interesting article over at Memri.org, about the new seven wonders of the world. And there was a piece from a Lebanonies article describing his alternative wonders of the world.
His list goes:
1. Arabic unity
2. Destruction of Israel
3. Removal of colonialism
4. Control over agriculture, oil and energy resources
5. Liberal freedoms
6. Equality between men and women
7. Honoring the rights of the handicapped
8. Honoring the rights of the children
9. Removing of illiteracy
10. Jails not filled with people who voice a different opinion
11. Open borders between the Arab countries
12. Unified Arab currency
13. Dedication to science

And some more. But behold. The man will rather have israel destroyed, then have liberal freedom, the ability to voice his own opinion and other wonders.

And NOTHING, NOTHING will change until this preference change.

You need to take responsibily over your preferences.

Raccoon, I was showing you two sides of the coin. The Dutch and nobody else have a right to say anything at all as far as I’m concerned. Only people directly involved physically may have their say because it’s all of ‘us’ where this is all about and we’re no pawns, but people…. However there are more ways of looking at ‘history’ as you might know (or not).

Anyway Ramzi I’m placing a link here and I would like to know what you have to say to this, is this true at all, are they all lies, or is it just a small fraction of a diverse society (like here) where everything is happening and one takes the bad things and project them as major problems?

http://www.charismamag.com/middle-east/073007.html

thanks

(yesterday I had a whole response typed out for you, Raccoon, but it got stuck while sending it and I couldn’t retrieve it. besides this annoying fact I also couldn’t enter this blog again afterwards…. is this a problem with my pc or has it something to do with the blog?)

Hey guys, the server had a bit of a glitch during the changes being made (to hopefully make it safer and faster) and some of the comments are now listing out of the order in which they were initially made. It seems that during that same glitch anyone posting a comment at the time was not able to get the comment to go through –no comments were moderated away. It was a one-time occurrence I’m told. However, if anyone notices it happening again please note it here and, if possible, ship me an email yaeli dot kaynan at gmail dot com.

Here is Lynne’s comment that got pushed up to almost the beginning of the thread for ease of access:

Raccoon and Ramzi: I wanted to post my comments before now, but was traveling and could not manage it.
You both make good points in your comments. Raccoon, I agree completely with you in the distinction that you make between legitimate resistance tactics and terrorism. And, until recently, there were not overtures toward peace or even a place to begin with some of the vocal Palestinian groups calling for the murder of every Jewish man, woman and child, and backing these words up with terrorist actions.
You both agree that violence against members of each group is unacceptable and leads to misery of the most acute degree, and that we seem to be moving toward cooperation and a goal of peace between these two groups who have been enemies for much too long. You say so now, and this has been your stance always on this blog. It seems that you are in agreement here completely. Terrorism against civilians is indefensible (and frankly, I think that military action should be always a last resort and that dialogue should be the first means of conflict resolution—I believe that we mostly agree on this.) IDF soldiers, the Palestinian people, Israeli citizens have all suffered to an extreme degree from this terrible conflict. I don’t think that this can be disputed by anyone. Interference from outside from those who would perpetuate this hardship and tragedy is much to blame. It seems that there may be a chance now with Fayad and Abbas to resolve the issues that would lead to peace.
Ramzi, your words so much encourage me, especially your last statement:
“…eversince Mahmoud Abbas took back the control of the Pal. TV, i started watching it carefully and you really can’t say that it’s calling for the killing of anyone…on the contrary…”
Those of us who support a reasonable and just solution in the conflict between Israel and the Palestinian people, have not heard much from moderate Palestinian voices calling for peace with Israel. It is good to be hearing those now.

Zvi –which one of yours got shifted? Raccoon do you see one of yours extremely out of place? Tsedek I think your comment got eaten –the one you were not able to post and then couldn’t access the blog. Argh.

Ok Tsedek….
This article is nothing but pure …Racism… The story of the 16 years old Girl and the 23 years old guy …it’s funny, but i happen to know both of them , and let me tell you the whole story and what ” Kidnapping” means over here..
It was a Love story between a girl that we will name A and a guy that we will name T …. These two fell in love somehow, but in bethlehem and all over the Palestinian Territories, Muslims and Christians can’t fall in love because it’s a Taboo and because Christians tend to be OVER PROTECTIVE of their community, so the only solution is running away and living elsewhere , this happens almost every two or three months in Bethlehem, when families get involved , it becomes a huge problem… T never kidnapped A , she just left with him and they both hid somewhere around bethlehem so that they figure out a way to live their relationship… But all of bethlehem got involved in the story, some crazy useless armed christians started shooting and throwing rocks at the Shop of the guy’s father, They were lucky that this guy wasn’t crazy enough to send his men to the battle , because if he did, there wouldn’t be anyone left in bethlehem! Then it all ended with the Father sending his son away from Bethlehem in order to avoid future problems… That’s the work of a Crazy society , it’s nothing but a crazy society! …. And so what if she held an American Citizenship too ? this didn’t contribute to anything …. It just makes the story more ” fun” to read! It’s nothing but a story between a girl and a guy who fell in love, she was not Sixteen by the way, she was 17 …And now, due to social discriminations inside the Christian community in bethlehem, the girl lives in the USA , nobody would ever want to talk or to get married to a girl who loved a Muslim … See how sick Palestinian Christians are ? They are the ones causing discrimination against their own brethern! ….
There is another story were a christian Girl holding double American Palestinian nationalities fell in love with a guy called Mohamed, she ran away with him and went to the USA…three days later, she informed her parents, all town started the disgusting gossip , her family wasn”t very happy but at the End, they gave up and now, the girl is living with her Muslim husband in the USA , and i heard that everything is perfect with them …
BUT .. in all these stories where girls tend to accept to Run away with their Boyfriends in order to live a …healthy relationship or something of that kind , the Christian community uses the word ” Kidnapping” … And some sick reporters find some time to write about it !
” He described the torture suffered by Christian converts from Islam since then as “the kind of thing you only read about in Medieval books—it’s very difficult to describe.” ” Euh… What the heck ?
and the Funniest part is this one :
” Human rights violations against Palestinian Christians, according to Weiner, also include: individual loss of job or property; firebombed churches; destruction of Christian-based centers; beatings; torture; forced marriages; sexual harassment; and extortion ” …
Individual loss of Job or Property ? …Well , let me tell you a secret, Palestinian Christians usually own their businesses and employ muslims , the loss of property in this community is due to chrisitians selling their houses and businesses and LEAVING the country … with the help of American Neo Cons and Evangelists who feel obliged to Save us! it’s important to note than when you sell your property over here, Christians are not Buyers , so it’s normal that you sell it to a muslim , i prefer to call him a PALESTINIAN… AND it’s important to note that when you want to sell something to a christian, the first tendancy from his side is to give you LESS MONEY because HE IS CHRISTIAN! So no, i prefer to get some extra cash and sell to a Muslim! … or to another Palestinian , just as the law states!
” Weiner cited several specific examples of persecution, including an Armenian Christian jeweler arrested without cause and beaten for eight hours in a Palestinian police station.”
Ok , now here is the story : This guy was a thief and a gold smuggler, he refused to pay the taxes and when the police came to question him , he kind of ran away to Jerusalem since he holds a Jerusalem Resident’s ID, when he came back to Bethlehem, they managed to arrest him , but ..the ” Beaten for 8 hours part” well..i wasn’t there , but all i can tell you is that there is a tendancy to use violence against everyone and this is called Legitimate Violence , if they hit christians, they also hit Muslims, i will not tell you about how much they hurt a guy because he was from Hamas and because he was planning to carry an attack against the Police … That’s called Legitimate Violence .. but it never lasts 8 hours and it happens all over the world, even where it’s prohibited! I suggest that the honourable authors visits some detention camps here and there ..
“Most in danger are Arab Christians. And most in danger among Arab Christians are those who have converted from Islam. They are often left defenseless against cruelty from Muslim fundamentalists.”
That’s not TRUE at all, being from here, and knowing the two communities, it’s almost impossible to CONVERT from one side or the other, It’s Impossible by Law and by social norms … and besides, Israel, being the side that issues our ID cards , doesn’t allow it for ” security” reasons ….
I AM A PALESTINIAN , and i happen to be a christian, i never felt any kind of racism or whatsoever, eventhough it’s not a secret that there are tensions between the communities sometimes, like in every other country. But the truth is that we all live our lives side by side, we all are Palestinians and that’s what counts the most, in front of the Palestinian Law, we all recieve the same treatment, we all are First class citizens and there isn’t any kind of diferentiation between the communities!
…. I am disgusted from this racist CRAP of Christians all over the world…yes, i’m racist against my very own disgusting comminit

Mosheh …

All i can say to you is that your comment too is irrelevant and that it only represents your Wills and desires, and the same thing goes for the comments made by the Lebanese guy who wrote the things you quoted ….Life is much easier like that !

Thank you for explaining, Yaeli

Ramzi: thank you very, very much for the detailed explanation. I kinda suspected as much (I’m VERY distrustful of ‘outsiders’ reporting ‘bad things’ happening at other communities, no matter who or what) – I believe every word you said.

However…. are you also talking about Gaza? Not that I know the inside details (nothing is what it seems, that much I know) – but it occurs to me that there are indeed some fundamentalist Islamic features being forced upon the people (all people) there? Or, wouldn’t you know either?

Btw: the intra-marriage taboo is here, in Jewish society, as well, as far as I can tell. Of course not everybody, but a majority I suspect. Funny thing is that from two ‘cases’ I know of, the Muslim family condemned the marriage just as much as the Jewish family did… (it would be completely different if it weren’t two Muslim girls, since Muslim men seem to be allowed to marry girls from the “People of the Book”. )

Again, thank you for explaining, dear

Tsedek,
About Gaza, i heard what you heard, eventhough i believe that extremism is at a high over there, i also believe that some sides tend to make things much bigger than what they really are, so i really hope that things are not as described, but again, i suggest the we also take a look at the Muslim population of Gaza that is Also suffering…that’s why , the best way is to talk about the Palestinian Population as a whole …. Because just as extremists attacked muslims, they also attacked christians, come to think of it, statistically, there are much much MUCH less attacks against christians than against muslims, but the moment a christian is Attacked for any reason , everyone tends to mediatize it! ….Yuck ….

Yep, that’s why I wrote (all people)

As for relevancy, i was commenting on your original post. and why i think there is no reason for being optimistic.

The death threats on Faayad and his withdrawl from his original plan of non-armed resistance, as well as the Palestinians perception that such a plan harms the Palestinians goals actually proves my point.

As for my own wills and desires, i didn’t mention i want anything in my post, so how did you figure that?

on a whole different note, as a christian, i would guess you belive in jesus, or atleast in his existance as an historical figure, or atleast, that his parents lived in a jewish community, or that at least, there were jews around in Israel at about the time he lived.
which was actually, pre palestinian. which kind of makes the area, jewish land and not palestinian or Arab land.

Aha… So what is your point moshe ? i should pack and Leave ? … Your wills and desires are clear my friend…your last comment is the proof!… I don’t see any reason why i should reply to your post that says more or less that i don’t exist as a Palestinian and that i don’t have any right to be here …. your comment killed all the possibilities of any understanding or even any dialog … I can only give you one advice : Just come to the 21st century and have a look at how the world is formed …. No matter who was there 2000 or even 3000 Years ago, what counts is the current state of the world …. I prefer to make it clear Right away that no matter who was here first, this land has to get partitioned at some point ….the world is much more complicated than ” Jews were here” and ” jews were there” …. we all have RED BLOOD, 46 chromosomes etc….. That’s where i REST MY CASE with you , have a nice day !

Hmm. Sensetive are we?

My point is not that you should pack and leave. Nor that the land shouldn’t be partitioned.

I actually do belive there is no other way but to partition the land.

I actually hate the settlements, and what they say about me as an Israeli. I do accept responibility for what they cause the Palestinian people.

Personally, i think MY situation will be better if you had a country. And this belif leads me to wanting you having a country even though i belive the land belong to me. there is no contradiction there.

The thing is, i also belive that the palestinians think that their situation will be better if I didn’t have a country. so much so, that they prefer that I don’t have a country over you them having one.

I do have RED blood and 46 chromosones. please try to remember that the next time one of your neighbours decides to shoot a missile at me or blow up in my bus.

Moshe: The list you posted is another evidence to the cognitive dissonance which characterizes so many among the Arab thinkers. How can “liberal freedoms” and universal human rights (5-10) be harmonized with his uppermost desire for the detruction of another country?

What comes through, from this melange of what “Liberal freedoms” means in actuality with his other wishes (namely Arab ascendancy into unity and superiority) is a fascist dream:

“Fascism is an authoritarian political ideology (generally tied to a mass movement) that considers individual and other societal interests subordinate to the needs of the state, and seeks to forge a type of national unity, usually based on, but not limited to, ethnic, cultural, or racial attributes. ”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

George Orwell summed it up succinctly:

“Except for the relatively small number of Fascist sympathizers, almost any English person would accept ‘bully’ as a synonym for ‘Fascist’. ”

http://www.orwell.ru/library/articles/As_I_Please/english/efasc

You don’t have to be an Englishman to realize that someone desiring so fervently the destruction of Israel is a bully. Let alone all this reactionary longing for Pan-Arabism, which Fouad Ajami described with such sympathetic criticism in his aptly titled book “The Dream Palace of the Arabs”

“In an Arab political history littered with thwarted dreams, little honor would be extended to pragmatists who knew the limits of what could and could not be done. The political culture of nationalism reserved its approval for those who led ruinous campaigns in pursuit of impossible quests. ”

Looks to me your listmaker is hankering for just such a quest, yet again.

Why are you saying this to me ??? none of my neighbours attacked you as far as i know…

You all should apply:

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I’m saying it, cause its TRUE.

can you honestly say that not even a single one of of your neighbours, classmates, business associates, friends, … is associated with the “resistance”? come on.

And because you don’t see the problem with it. because you think the AAMB are something that you can live with.

Because since its true, giving Israelis tours in places where they can easily be killed or kidnapped without considering the price both I and you will pay for it – is either insane or just evil. I don’t want to kill or be killed, please, pretty please, don’t encourage anything that might cause one of them.

Oh Moshe, be’emet *_*

Guys, please.

Ramzi is NEITHER crazy NOR evil. He’s trying to educate people about the reality that he sees day to day on the Palestinian street, and to share his hopes and dreams. Some approaches may be ill-advised but we can always do the virtual thing instead, by asking questions with an open mind.

For all that we disagree on some things, Ramzi has said plainly that he does not approve of the attacks against Israeli civilians by these groups, including the AAMB. And in general, most of us probably agree with him on many more points than we disagree.

Let’s please knock off the ad hominem stuff here. It is not at all constructive or decent to launch accusations against each other, personally.

Unless you have evidence that Ramzi is the head of the AAMB or something, please back off.

Take a few deep breaths.

Thanks.

—-

P.S. I will be away for a few days so I won’t see how this thread plays out, and if this comment upsets/confuses anyone, it will be several days before I’ll be able to come back and clear up any misconceptions or apologize. With that in mind, I apologize in advance to anyone who is offended by the aggressive phrasing here. Nevertheless I feel that this needed to be said.

Moshe,

” can you honestly say that not even a single one of of your neighbours, classmates, business associates, friends, … is associated with the “resistance”? ”

Yes, to your surprise, i can VERY VERY VERY HONESTLY say that not even a single one of my neighbours, classmates, business associates or Friends is associated with any Militant group..

” Because since its true, giving Israelis tours in places where they can easily be killed or kidnapped without considering the price both I and you will pay for it – is either insane or just evil.”

Don’t worry, i’m much smarter than that and allow me to STOP YOU right away, i’m not EVIL nor Insane, when i know that something is dangerous, i don’t do it! Besides, it’s important to note that if you don’t want to visit, it’s your very own problem, don’t expect everyone to be like you! After all, i never kidnapped anyone, they all entered because they wanted to VISIT ME and THE PLACE WHERE I LIVE! And honestly, my house is open to all those who wish to visit, it’s not you or anyone else that will ever stop me from recieving Friends at home !

And a last note: Just take into consideration that the world is much bigger than your little “psychological Cage”, that things outside are not as described by your news papers,and that we have a life…..

On another PERSONAL note, i would like to say to you : Be Scared, be VERY scared, one day you might find evil me in front of you, terrorizing you , because that’s what i do in life, i terrorize people, everyone on this blog knows this…. with some friends, we formed a Gang, we built new Missiles,we called them Ramzi 1 and Ramzi 2 , and we are planning to empty Israel of it’s citizens, we also specialize in the killing of Women and Children….By the way, we registered our Terrorist Company at the Terrorist Palestinian Ministry of Industry! ….

That’s probably what you want to hear , no ? … You got it! SATISFIED ??? now, let everyone else live in peace…

sorry *blush* but:

I’m in stitches now

Ramzi, well, at least you registered your terrorist company! Lol!
These disagreements are symptoms of our fatigue with the conflict, fear that our hopes for peace will again be disappointed, and probably exacerbated by the heat. I nearly melted my last week in Tel Aviv.
We agree on the essentials, we are sharing our perspectives, and we are all trying to hear each other—I think that we are doing the best we can under very trying circumstances…

Again and again,
you keep hearing what you want to hear, and not what is being said.

I didn’t say you (nor meant) you invite people to kill or kidnap them.
But that is not to say they have a somewhat higher then normal chance to be
killed or kidnapped when they do so.
Taking your word about not knowing anyone who is involved in killing israelis,
I can’t see how it sits well with you makeing sure there is no danger.

Funny comment about Ramzi 1…

But what made you think that is what i wanted to hear?
you keep jumping to the conclusion that i see you or the Palestinians as murderous animals.
i don’t. i get it that probably 99% of the population just want to have a decent quite life.
Homes, freedom, kids, yada yada yada.

But on the other hand, i keep getting pounded in the face with what his happening,
that its getting more and more difficult to keep beliveing that. and the frustration over this
is unbeliveable.

Talking about the psycological cage,
you know the story about the 5 blind man who meet an elepahant?
you keep claiming i’m one of them. what makes you think your not one of them too?

Not even five minutes pass after my post and i see this in walla
http://news.walla.co.il/?w=/3850/1147976

for the non hebrew speakers,
it says that the some egyption soldiers masacered refugees from Sudan.
everything is filmed on tape.

There’s some “what really goes on in the big world” for ya.
or is it, as you put it, just a case of lawlessness.

I feel very fortunate to have stumbled upon this. If only for this very helpful unofficial forewarning regarding the debut of the Ramzi 2.

I am sad to say that I know very little about what is actually going on over there, on the other side. Most of the information I come in contact with, it seems, is filtered and exaggerated in the interest of the sensationalist media or extremists, both rightist (W00t! More power to us! Who cares about them!) and leftist (W00t! More power to them! Who cares about us!). It’s almost as if “Live” and “Let Live” have become mutually exclusive.

The concept of “The Power of Weakness” as you put it is a very real one. Given a concrete option to take an action that would benefit themselves and give them credit at the expense of the greater good, many humans, being human, would do just that- and paradoxically all end worse off (giving rise to a very famous dilemma in Game Theory). It trivially follows that good things can come out of leaders developing a healthy recklessness aversion- induced by lack of popularity or otherwise.

Oh, Moshe Moshe… Am i Egyptian ? ….

as for the Psychological Cage, the difference between the two of us is that I TAKE RISKS and i look outside of the CAGE, while you only look inside the News Paper and inside your Foreign ministry’s Website! That’s your psychological Cage, the cage that forces you to believe that this place is ONLY yours and that it has been yours for over 2000 Years, this psychological cage that makes your beliefs crash all other facts around you and make you become unrational, they make you become a slave of the media and of the security establishment! They also make you fear everyone else around you , yes , there are VERY VERY VERY good people in alll the arab countries surrounding you, yes, there are educated people, cultured people, people who want peace, people who work for peace, if you don’t hear about them, it doesn’t mean that they don’t exist, it means that YOU or someone else DOESN’T WANT YOU to see or to know! That’s one of the reasons behind building walls and separating populations ! It’s the reason why you always feel that someone out there wants to ” Genocide” you while , if you think with some Reason, you will realize that you will never disappear, not because you ” Fight” and ” Kill” and ” conquer” and ” defend” and whatever, but because, here again, the world is bigger than Israel and than the Middle East, and nobody will ever let you erase the Palestinian People just as nobody will let anyone erase you! And when i say nobody, i mean NOBODY! If you really want PEACE, you MUST admit that there are good people on many sides , even in Syria ! You didn’t contribute to anything during this debate, you just added more spices on the already very spicy issue of us not liking each other! What’s the use ? We all know very well that there is a conflict, no need to remind us ….Anyways, while doing this, your Psychological cage makes you have what you criticize the most … meaning, the so called ” Palestinian Attitude” of not wanting Peace… Eventhough it doesn’t exist, you create it, and you apply it on yourself! Now, make yourself a Favor and start leaving the Cage! ENOUGH ! You will never have peace if you think that we will capitulate, you will never have peace if you think that this land belongs to you and that you are doing us a favor by dividing it , you are not Giving us a country, WE ARE BUILDING a country, that’s what you should understand! You will never have peace if you will keep thinking that we all are terrorists and that our majority wants to kill you and hurt you…because this will probably make your son’s finger easier on the Trigger once he will serve in the army… Once you will view us as equals,once you will get rid of the arrogant ” Moral Highs” that you claim to have by saying ” This land belongs to me” …. peace will fall on this region…. because when you say such things, you do nothing but reproduce what all this conflict is about, that’s not the goal of this blog, we don’t Reproduce over here, we CREATE!

Ramzi -

Every single point you’ve just made has been repeatedly refuted by facts. I don’t want to waste time and present these facts again.

Bottom line:
If you can’t face the facts, you can’t change them. You don’t. So you won’t.

???????????????

Racoon, WHAT IS YOUR POINT ????What facts are you talking about ? are you sure that you read my comment ?

Ok…What do you expect from me on this Blog ??? Do you want me to shut up and tell you that you are right ? Do you want me to say SORRY for everything ??? What do you exactly want ?
And here is Raccoon talking about FACTS while all i talked about was a way to see things, slightly different than the SIMPLISTIC one that everyone prefers to have….and what do i get in return ? someone telling me that i don’t face facts and that i can’t change my world…. Does this person face facts in return, this very person is even not able to change his views, how can he Talk of changement ??? is this being open minded ? Do you think that by using the word ” Facts” , you will shut me up ???? We never agreed over these so Called ” FACTS” … i don’t even know what you are refering to by the way.
a Fact is defined philosophically as a Universal truth, your FACTS lack universality, because our disagreement over them is not only Ideological, but also hides in the fact that each one of us is living and percieving the “Fact” on his own side … It’s clear that the only thing you expect from me is to agree with you and to tell you that ” our goal as palestinians is to Genocide you” , I Won’t agree! And i’m not expecting you to agree with me either…i’m not a preacher, i’m not a Propaganda machine, i’m not a terrorist and i’m not a member of any movement , party or militant group , i’m just a NORMAL PALESTINIAN WHO WANTS TO LIVE IN PEACE AND SECURITY and i happen to represent a lot( a Majority) of people that you refuse to see because hate , i repeat, HATE blinded you!

Ramzi -

I have no intention of going over the same things in detail for the Nth time… so I’ll give you the headlines:

Manifestos of every significant political entity in PA are calling for the
destruction of Israel and a genocide of the Jews (in some cases, the latter is merely implied. Then they’re called “moderates”).

Every single poll conducted by any organization among the Palestinians has found that they support the notion of the destruction of Israel. I never found one which asked “do you think Jews should be genocided”, but from the general gist of the answers, combined with the rest of the evidence I am now (for the Nth time) providing, a positive answer seems certain.

The Palestinian education, media, intelligentsia, etc., are spewing the same two lines in a surprising variety of ways. The two lines are:
Israel must be destroyed.
The Jews are evil and must be destroyed.

The sheer number of attempted attacks on Israeli civilians is indicative of a problem.

The fact that mass-murderers of Jewish civilians are invariably hailed as heroes is also indicative of a problem.

The fact that the Palestinians started the Second Intifada when they were offered a state and benefits unimaginably generous is another thing indicative of a problem.

Frankly, I am too stoned at the moment to be bothered to think of more once again. But there are plenty more.

These facts combine into a fascinating picture. I am sure you would disagree, but then again I know that you cannot refute the aforementioned facts.

Either way… I can’t understand why you’re being so emotional and why do you think this is somehow contributive to our exchange.

Oh yes, by the way…

Had I hated you I would have located you, made sure your life became full of excruciating pain and then killed you.

The facts that we’re communicating and that I am not a necromancer are indicative of my lack of hate.

I hope that none of us hate each other… ever.

I thought the idea behind this blog was to cultivate virtual neighbourly relationship so that when the time arrives, a not a moment too soon, we can make the switch to real relationship with some reservoir of good will on both sides. I’m concerned about the seeming aleihum on Ramzi. Surely, facts and arguments can be delivered without all these personal innuendoes and recriminations!

Yael, I have an idea for this blog. How about you open up a thread on something completely unrelated to Israel, Palestine or politics. Maybe a literary thread, where we can sometimes meet and discuss interpretations of literature or films instead of charters and commission reports? You can call it: The pub at the end of the universe. Or whatever takes your fancy. It will be a place to go to and have a cold beer and some stimulating conversation with others, maybe some music. Well? How about it? Is anybody interested?

Noga, I agree. You are right; we need to all work on developing neighborly relationships. I guess the tense situation, the frustrations that we all feel now and have felt for so long, and the fear of losing hope again that is causing us to lose it. I admit to feeling more uptight and nervous than usual, while still trying to hold on to hope and to feel some optimism.
Guys, let’s not get bogged down in despair, frustration and anger.
I was talking with a friend the other day, feeling really frustrated with myself for being “tribal” actually. I lived in Louisiana and we had a saying there: “Family first.” I am certainly oriented that way and I was thinking that might not be a positive thing…but then it occurred to me that it was a matter of interpretation. If family is truly first, then we do want to take care of our families, but our concern must extend further –much further by creating the kind of communities that are safe, secure, harmonious, productive—and that involves caring for others outside of our immediate circle. I think that we all try to do that here on this blog… our conversations usually avoid this harsh tone. I’d like to invite Ramzi and Raccoon to look past this and to think about what EACH might be feeling just now. For my part, I have found myself feeling more tense and anxious than usual due to the political situations around the world. I am rather tired, hope that this makes some sense.

Well Ramzi,
I’ll tell you what i want. I want an acknowledgement.
I want you to say in a clear way, yes, all the things that Racoon mention above happen.
It’s not enough that you will say, you don’t support them.
I want you to say that they are wrong.
It’s not enough that you will say, they are wrong because they don’t help the palestinian cause.
I want you to say that they are wrong because that sort of actions is immoral.

Lets for one second ignore WHY these things were done. or will they happen again.
I just want an acknowledgement that they were done.

I can’t move forward without this point.
I will not contamplate peace with someone who do not recognize what he has done.
(not you personally, but the palestinian in general)
Without it, the only assurance i have this will not be done again is my sword and my life saving wall.

Let me be the first to do this, i do acknowledge and recognize what i have done. i do.
I belive that what i did was in self defence, but i also know that it has gone a great deal beyond that.

BTW, what do you mean the big world will not let anyone erase me?
Someone already tried once in europe.
The iraqies tried in 91 (Thank’s to peres, it was normal missiles and not nuclear ones)
The iranians are threathening to try again (nukes this time).

What will your response be? That they won’t do it?
A gun that appears in the first act, fires on the third.

I mean come on, you have an alternatives.
I have no where else to go.

GUYS!!!!! Can those of you who are fast and furiously throwing virtual accusations and barbs at one another, take a deep breath, drink a nice cold glass of water or sip on an iced latte, and then continue your conversation as you would if you were having it with, say, your favourite sibling or best friend –if you are Israeli, think about having it with your frail and aged grandmother.

In other words, play nicer. It is giving me a headache.

Noga –we’re promised that the open forums should be coming online soon –hello Little System Administrator! –which should let commenters as well as authors start lots of different discussions in the forums section.

Welcome Ben –your comment, held in moderation as a first-time comment, has been approved. Glad to have you here!

I still don’t get it how someone who doesn’t know the other individual personally can utter such harsh things to him
O_O

Raccoon your reality is not the same as Ramzi’s reality (both your worlds have their own perspective on the same events/situations). By denying Ramzi his perspective on the conflict based on his experiences and the way he absorbs them, you are – in fact – forcing your perspective on him.

Don’t you know people have a build-in automatic reaction system when they are forced? Same with you: would you like to be forced into feeling something they tell you you must feel? What would your reaction be? “Yes, you’re right, that’s how I feel about it“?

Ramzi is trying to look forward and you and Moshe are forcing him to look backward: to ‘admit’ – to ‘recognize’ things from the past. What good does that do?

“Their” violence seems worse to us than “our” violence, and for ‘them’ – “our” violence seems worse than “their” violence. Man!! that’s only natural. When two (or more) parties are in conflict one’s own behavior can’t be judged objectively, how?

Personally I cannot understand at all that people demonstrate against for example that ‘wall’ when justifying its existence by themselves by letting terrorists carry out suicideattacks in Israel. My simple mind starts thinking “hey! if the wall is so horrible, why don’t they try to stop those responsible for giving justification to build the wall in the first place -the cause in short- ? I don’t understand why. If Israeli’s would be carrying out violent attacks in Jordan and Jordan would put up a wall, I am sure I could understand that. Even if build on part of Israeli land. So, it’s more complicated because you see that not only Palestinians don’t see it that way, but also whole organizations all over the world and the UN court (eventhough that was a farce). Doesn’t it interest you at all where lies the misunderstanding between how ‘we’ see it and how ‘they’ see it? (without degrading eachother with words) If not, and you come with ‘it’s like this and if you don’t accept I’ll just make you pay for it more just because I can’ instead of trying to find out how we can come closer to understanding eachother and maybe solving the mystery of this miscommunication – you are in fact denying people their right on their own perspective.

And for that you attack Ramzi??

Ramzi you must understand that ‘our’ perspective isn’t the same as yours. When you say ‘we are not like that’ – I believe you, because I’ve seen with my own eyes how things get highlighted and taken out of proportion and context and become a propaganda tool. (Like the kidnapping thing hereabove) – But you can’t take away by saying this the image the average Israeli is having of ‘the’ Palestinians. The images of two reserve duty soldiers whose organs were smashed on manarah square in Ramallah after having been lynched, the 14 year old boy that had an internet date with an “American” girl that turned out to lure him in the hands of his Palestinian killers, the car that got lost in Ramallah and the army had to free the driver because he was about to be lynched………. my two friends who had a restaurant in Shenkin and got killed in Ramallah when they were purchasing their ingredients there, the old man that always brought toys to Palestinian children and terrorists killed him…. and so many, many more ‘examples’ that are written before our eyes. Just saying ‘it is not us’ is sometimes not enough even if ‘we’ really, really would like to believe this.

On the other hand, I think not many Israeli’s know that in the week before the lynching of the reserve soldiers, 100 Palestinians were killed by the IDF including children. Not that this excusing the lynching of those soldiers of course. Each crime and its own, unrelated judgment. But still, after one loses a child (or more) I can fully understand that the killing of people that are in one way or another connected with the organization (IDF) responsible for it – doesn’t upset one too much. And, there are many more examples.

Anyway (pfffffffff long monologue here ) I hope that some a LITTLE bit more compassion can be introduced when addressing eachother, we ALL have fears, we ALL feel threatened and we ALL suffer – and the ONLY way to stop this is by talking and the ONLY way to talk is to recognize that everyone has a RIGHT on his own perspective.

Aunty Tse. signing off now

Perhaps I am too cynical and too Levantine to be a good neighbor. I wasn’t trying to attack anyone, and yet it seems that I am perceived as attacking…

Considering Nobody’s “thick epidermis vs. emotional intelligence” theory, perhaps my pachyderm-like attitude to communications is clashing with the delicate sensitivities needed for such a debate.

*shrugs*

I’ll just keep my Raccoonish snout out of it.

Raccoon don’t you dare keep your Raccoonish snout out of it. It is a darn cute snout!

Again, I think all you guys (Raccoon, Moishe, Ramzi, and others) agree on all the base issues. None of you want more violence, none of you approve of barbaric acts no matter who is doing them, all of you want a two-state solution, none of you want to destroy the other.

I tell you what I think (maybe I’m wrong, here) would go a long way to helping each other hear what you (each of us) are saying. I think it is the way things are phrased. For instance, why say “you” when you mean “the group you are living among”? It makes the other person take things very personally and feel as if the statement is being directed directly at them, as if they are being held responsible for everything anyone else in their society does. Or as if they themselves are being accused of doing “insert your own bad/mean/ unkind/ murderous/ thing here.” And even better, why say something like “the Palestinians” or “Israelis” as if all Palestinians or all Israelis are one monolithic entity, all with one same opinion and goal –there is great diversity among these two people just as in every country and every culture. Why not qualify it with something like “many Palestinians” or “it seems like a lot of Israelis” or “there may be other views but the only view we hear is”…thereby acknowledging what is quite clear here on this blog and that is that there is great diversity.

Honestly, I think that it is more the phrasing of the ideas presented than the ideas themselves that make each other turn off or become defensive and that turn a discussion into the feeling that is has become an argument.

Moshe,

I don’t have any alternatives, that’s my country, i have nowhere else to go and i don’t want to go anywhere else!

just couldn’t say you acknoledge. ha.
what’s the point?

We are all capable of being good neighbors. I don’t really think that I can add in any meaningful way to the things that Tsedek said above. (Thanks, Tsedek, for your comments).
Most of the time we all do a good job of sharing ideas and thoughts, in spite of differences.
Raccoon, we need your comments and your perspective. Everyone who comments and posts here has something of value to contribute here, even in a heated debate like this one. The most productive thing that we could all do for each other is to stop being defensive and listen to each other more, carefully considering each person’s point of view. I know for certain that at times we all experience optimism, hope, anger, frustration, etc. Some of us are actively grieving. . . Consider that, please, when you all respond to each other. As a teacher, I have to always keep in mind that when my students are angry, out of sorts, frustrated that there is a reason for those feelings. Let’s try to do the same for each other here.

Lynne,
Where in Louisiana did you live? We seem to have a lot of Louisiana roots here – I believe Yaeli is from New Orleans. I lived in New Orleans too.

And the only time I’ve ever been in the U.S. my ‘base’ was Lake Charles

DL, I was born in Monroe, Louisiana but lived most of my adult life in New Orleans. I lived several places in New Orleans: starting out on the Westbank in the newer area of Algiers, moving uptown near Tulane and Loyola just off St. Charles Avenue, and finally moving to a little cottage in Marrero that my family owed. I got so tired of the crime and the climate there and was ready for a change. I moved to Austin, Texas about 12 years ago.
New Orleans is devastated from the hurricane. It would be wise for the city to only allow rebuilding on the natural ridges and higher ground. Even before the hurricane, there were massive problems with buildings and homes on ground that was unsuitable for building, due to extreme subsidence. I understand that crime is out of control in New Orleans again.

Tsedek, how on earth did you end up in Lake Charles, Louisiana? Were you kidnapped and taken there against your will ?
Well, in fairness, I am sure that Lake Charles has some charm…somewhere.

Well, friends of my parents lived there (half a year each year – because they were oil-people in the North-Sea near the Netherlands – where they lived the other half year of the year) – and thus I went to spent time with them. I loved Louisiana. But then, I loved all the southern states I visited. Up until this very day I can’t get out of my mind how an old couple I was spending some days with (very hospitable people as well in southern USA) prepared ‘hot biscuits’ in a baking pan on the gas stove. It were little buns of bread, but undoubtedly the most delicious buns I ever tasted in my whole life. Pity I didn’t ask for the recipe. Now, 30 years after I’m still thinking about it sometimes….

Ramzi, can you explain why Fayyad’s government apparently plans to buy new $70000 cars for HAMAS members of the Palestinian parliament? What on earth are they thinking?

Tsedek –here is the recipe for southern-style biscuits (courtesy of my grandmother, ?? ?”?):

Put 2 cups of self-rising flour in bowl.
Add 2/3rds cup milk, 1/3 cup corn oil.
Mix and roll out on wax paper with flour on it so it won’t stick.
Cut with a glass but don’t twist the glass.
Place on an ungreased cookie sheet, and bake at 425 F (220 C) for
12 minutes.

Zvi –what???? where did you hear that? Yikes! That isn’t possible, is it?!

Yaeli, it’s from the 2nd page of this JPost article by Khaled abu Toameh:

A top PA official said there was good reason to believe that the money was transferred to Hamas deliberately and not as a result of a computer error.
…
He said about 1,000 members of Hamas’s paramilitary Executive Force managed to withdraw their salaries from the banks before the mistaken transfers were discovered.

Also on Thursday, sources close to Fayad said his government had decided to purchase new cars for all the members of the Hamas-dominated Palestinian Legislative Council. Each car will cost about $70,000 and Hamas legislators will also receive them, the sources added.

I honestly don’t understand this. The PA complains all the time about how they are strapped for cash and need all kinds of help from the rest of the world. There are 132 members of the PLC, so $70,000 per PLC member comes to over $9,000,000, to buy new cars for already-privileged members of Hamastan & WB society, many of whom already have cars.

Could they not use the money to buy medical equipment for hospitals, invest in a jobs program to get AAMB members off the street and into constructive work or fund a peace campaign in the media? Or just pay some guys who are currently out of work to patch some of their infrastructure?

I understand even less why they are buying new cars for HAMAS leaders who were recently involved in a coup against the very government that is now buying them new cars!

Ramzi, is anyone in West Bank society even remotely upset about this? Why are they doing this?

” for all the members of the Hamas-dominated Palestinian Legislative Council ”
Ok…let’s see … The article never said that anyone was buying cars for HAMAS…BUT For the ” Hamas-dominated” Palestinian legislative council, that will disappear once new elections are held…. It’s as if Shas wins the elections in israel and a journalist decides to write ” The Government is planning to buy new cars for the SHAS-Dominated Knesset”! … It means nothing, it’s just the wording , don’t blame Fayyad for what the choice of Words made by the Jpost reporter!
Besides, the so called ” Hamas Dominated Legislative council” is not hamas dominated anymore since many of the member are either in Gaza or emprisoned in Israel… That’s how Fayyad’s government got sworn in a few weeks ago … with the support of Fatah and the other non-hamas affiliated movements! …Anyways, the legislative council needs cars in order to function properly , no matter who dominates it … you must know better. I hate that Jpost journalist by the way..because that’s what Biased people always do! And he succeeded…Your reaction, Zvi, is the proof!

Now,about buying cars for each of the members, well , first of all i doubt it, secondly, it happens all over the world, in jordan for instance, each and every government official has his car, in Egypt as well … It’s not their property, it’s the property of the state that must respect it’s representatives…In france too, legislators have the right to get a car and a driver … I know a palestinian legislative council Ex member who got a Mercedes for his job, and once he finished his duty, he had to give back the car to the state… You can’t possibly blame the leadership for wanting to make it’s work more feasable! …70 000 Dollars Cars ? pff …seriously, the price didn’t shock you ??? Come on… 301000 NIS…. Unless they are planning to get hummers which i doubt… the official government cars are usually Mercedes cars, their price doesn’t exceed the 40 000 USD limit, besides, the government doesn’t pay taxes so they must get each car for 30…35000 USD , if not less! Come on,there is something stinky about this article!

As for the Computer Error, I believe that it’s a computer error, and by the way, all the banks were closed yesterday ( thanks to a presidential order ) in allll of the Palestinian authority including Gaza, they closed them in order to be able to sieze the money as fast as possible so as to avoid a big number of those payed by mistake to retrieve the money!

Ramzi, not sure about the whole car thing either –doesn’t sound right to me, but the paying of the salaries was definitely not a computer error. They’ve arrested the guy, quite high up in the ministry, who arranged for those payments to take place –he’d been bribed by Hamas officials to do so. My understanding from an article that ran on this in Ha’aretz is that Fayyad’s and Abbas’ people are very worried, because it was infiltration by people playing both sides (Hamas and Fatah) and bribing of Fatah officials such as this, that caused the complete rout and disintegration of Fatah forces in Gaza. And hey, don’t hate Toameh, he’s a very nice guy (he worked to get additional help for the family of the poor taxi driver who was murdered by the lunatic guy here in Tel Aviv) and is very sympathetic to the Palestinian plight.

So what Ramzi is trying to say:
1. Hamas does not exist and does not represent the Palestinian public. Why should we trust the results of the elections?
2. Terrorism acts of Palestinians is all attributed to Hamas but Hamas does not exist.
3. Terrorists activities is due to the harsh security measures of the Israeli army.
4. Palestinians are peace loving people who welcome all jews and Israeli presence among them.
5. Of course “some” Palestinians will kill jews or Israelis at sight because some great great ancestor of the neighbor of their neighbor got killed in the Israeli Arab conflict.

Of course I can not understand why in Lebanon all Palestinian camps are off limits to Lebanese security measures and an excellent media for all kind of terrorist and criminal activities.

I find most of what Ramzi is saying extremely hard to swallow and contradictory in its meaning or value. He will come back to me with sarcasm that “Palestinians have this gene that makes them violent and criminals and that I am racist”. Not true, but you should check what the Palestinian leaders have been feeding Palestinians all those passing years that turned them into a problem all over the Arab world and Israel. Palestinians had wars with most of the Arabs. Palestinians and Arabs killed from each other more than the casualties from the Arab Israeli conflict. Ramzi Palestinian pattern of behavior just got the Palestinian people in troubles again and again. Peace is the only way. So your leaders have to stop the BS and the people have to know there is always a price and consequences to the choice of war or peace.

Ibraheem does not exist….. therefore, i never read his comment ….

Some people really lack reading and comprehension skills ….

So many ex Pat New Orleanians and Louisianians! I am in NY, and if you visit here we should go to Jacque Imo’s.

“Some people really lack reading and comprehension skills ….” oh boy, I’ve been trying to explain this to you for months now!

Well well Racoon…. i’d like to get your comments on this Ibraheem’s comment ….

Ramzi: “Ibraheem does not exist….. therefore, i never read his comment ….”

However, a post later and Ramzi, again:

” Racoon…. i’d like to get your comments about this Ibraheem’s comment …”.

Is it just me concluding that in spite of Ramzi’s initial declaration, he did read the (non-existent) Ibraheem’s post after all?

uhm…it’s called Irony…with a little bit of Sarcasm Noga….

But i love how nobody is talking about his comment and how everybody is only adressing my reaction ….

Ramzi: “uhm…it’s called Irony…with a little bit of Sarcasm Noga…. ”

Noga: ah… silly me.

As per your question: Well, I think most people will find Ibraheem-the-non-existent’s comments very reasonable. He points to the incongruence between your view of Palestinian polity and the reality as it emerges not from wishful thinking but from observation of actual deeds, events, declarations, etc. For example, I find your dismissal of Hamas as an eccentric occurence in Palestinian history not quite commensurate with the fact that Hamas was elected in a free and legitimate election, given a kosher stamp by none other than the saintly Jimmy Carter.

Furthermore, I can’t figure out why you go on justifying buying cars for Palestinian functionaries to the tune of $9M when NGO’s and media favouring Palestinians keep telling us that Palestinians are on the brink of a humanitarian disaster. It just doesn’t make sense. Not that corruption is such a rare phenomenon but that you, who boast of clarity and knowledgability, will take upon yourself to shut down your critical function in order to justify this expense. $70,000 per car? Who do they think they are, UN delegates?

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NWZlZmYwY2ZkNWMyYTMyNjhmYTdkNGU1OTY3ZTM4MmI

Thank you Yaeli. I’m gonna try them out soon as the opportunity arises ::))

The other comments:

Ramzi are you saying the PA doesn’t buy $70,000 cars for Hamas members in function ?

Following question: why are there still Hamas members in function anyway? Wasn’t there a coup just a few weeks ago and Fatah declared the existing government illegal and formed a new one WITHOUT HAMAS members in it?

I am at a complete loss here

well Tsedek,

the PA never said that it was buying cars for hamas members, it said that it was buying cars for the Legislative council… They never said that they were buying cars for the Hamas Members or whatever and Both Abbas and Fayyad are repeating day after day that there is only one solution to the Problem : Hamas giving back Gaza to the PA and Appologizing for it’s actions …a thing that will not happen in the near future, then , there might be some kind of a dialog…

The only one who talked about Hamas over here is the Journalist…. By the way, I never said that hamas did not exist , And if i did, please Tell me WHEN ! All i’m saying is that THE JOURNALIST added the word ” HAMAS” to talk about the currently handicaped Legislative council! So Tsedek, when you buy cars for a certain government body , you buy them for the Body itself, not for the people who are inside it! That’s what i’m saying… otherwise, we can say that The government of israel got cars for Israel Our home , or for Kadima or whatever… Just keep in mind one thing, it’s no secret that Hamas is emprisoned in Gaza and that it’s abilities in the west Bank are so far VERY LIMITED no matter what people here and there try to say! That’s THE FACT!

And now , back to “Ibraheem” the Great, he said

” So what Ramzi is trying to say:
1. Hamas does not exist and does not represent the Palestinian public. Why should we trust the results of the elections?
2. Terrorism acts of Palestinians is all attributed to Hamas but Hamas does not exist.
3. Terrorists activities is due to the harsh security measures of the Israeli army.
4. Palestinians are peace loving people who welcome all jews and Israeli presence among them.
5. Of course “some” Palestinians will kill jews or Israelis at sight because some great great ancestor of the neighbor of their neighbor got killed in the Israeli Arab conflict ”

… Did i ask anyone to help me say anything ????? I’m not trying to say anything and i never said anything of the Above and that’s what nobody even bothered to look at, Raccoon and Noga only looked at my reaction, a reaction that was appropriate in this case where someone decided to talk on my behalf, a thing that i find quite Childish and kind of useless…. and a THING THAT I CAN’T ACCEPT … Oh, and by the way, this guy sounds like a Ynet or a haaretz talkbacker and i’m kind of Fed up with such remarks and people who are not constructive and who have been leading everyone in this region to complete chaos! From my first day on this blog, I tried my best so as not to offend anyone and so as not to point my finger towards anyone IN PERSON ! I tried to stay balanced, i tried to be unbiased and to speak my mind and to say what i think is Right! But Sadly enough … i am slowly realizing that some people are willing to do anything in order to bring the conflict in here, in order to shut me up, i’m also realizing that the finger is always pointed towards me, i always represent the Bad Ugly side on this blog …

Well, not for me, ramzi –

This is between you and Ibraheem that’s why I didn’t and won’t comment on it.

But for me you are a sweet peaceloving guy and a friend

Thank you for the explanation. I kinda thought something like that, but still I don’t know if there are or aren’t anymore Hamas members in the government? (whatever department, it doesn’t matter).

No no , there is a huge difference between the Legislative council ( The Knesset) and the Government… There are no Hamas members in the Government, it is mostly formed of independents … The current government is mostly working by Presidential Decrees and not by Legislative council decisions…This can go on for as long as a Year … i’ve heard from an expert in Government Law
And Tsedek, i know very well that it’s not between you and me … I was just replying to many comments at the same time …

Ah, OK, thanks for clearing that up ramzi

Ramzi -

I will say nothing on this. We have been over this many, many times.

You’ll never change the facts if you can’t face them.

yeah…. same goes to you my friend …

Guys!!!! Anyway we can have a discussion without offending each other and sounding so harsh and shrill? It MUST be the heat because this does not usually happen.
Ramzi, I don’t understand this need to purchase cars, but then I rarely agree with much that our leaders do. I’d like to see the priority be services provided directly to those who need them. I think on this matter we must take a wait and see attitude; there may be a misunderstanding or miscommunication. It is no secret that leaders tend to feather their own nests and jealously guard their own power and position. Ok, but I’d like to see the focus be on serving the people.
I am cautiously optimistic that Abbas and Fayyad will bring about positive changes. I wonder if I hope rather than believe?
Ramzi, you seem to have such kind feelings and goodwill toward others that it may be difficult for you to even think about the bad motives of others. I don’t think that the history of the region should stall or prevent the establishment of friendly neighborly relations, but it does make many of those who comment and post here understandably cautious and distrustful. That seems natural, but in time, if goodwill persists and endures, a degree of optimism will develop. I believe that Raccoon has made an important point: We need to know about our past in order to make valid judgments about what is going on currently. As painful as it was for me, though studying political sociology, I learned about episodes and events in US history that were sickening–not the image that I wanted of my country–not what I want, but it is reality.
About the cars: Let’s wait and see, or as they say here in the Deep South, “Hide and watch.”
DL, thanks! If I visit NY, let’s definitely go to Jacque Imo’s

Whoa!

Let’s back up a second, Ramzi.

1. I wasn’t commenting on the “computer error,” just using that part of the text to help people find the part of the text about the cars. But since you mention it – as Yaeli wrote, the PA claims to have arrested a guy for accepting bribes. In other words, not a computer error. So here are some questions:

* What does the Palestinian street think of that?
* Is it aware of it?
* Do people care?

2. I’ve said before that I have some hope that Fayyad (unlike most higher-ups in the PA) would do things right. Rather than attacking me for asking you why they were spending $9m on this, why they weren’t focusing on more urgent priorities and whether people in the WB are at all upset about this use of your government’s (scarce) resources, maybe you could provide some insight into the questions themselves; the reason why I directed the questions at you in the first place is that I was interested in your insights.

3. I obviously (!) understand that they are NOT giving the cars to the legislators. They are buying the cars for the use of the legislators while the latter are in office. Obviously. (I’m tempted to say “Duh!” here. Oh well. I said it! )

My point was this: why are they spending $9m to buy government cars for the use of legislators who can already drive their own vehicles? Most of these guys are relatively high in Palestinian society.

Assuming that the PA is short of cash (and I’ve been assuming that this is true, which I don’t think is a “biased” thing for me to do), then why are they spending it on THIS? HAMAS supposedly got where it is today by spending the cash that it received to build clinics and schools and job programs for the HAMAS-friendly poor and the like. Should the more moderate forces in the PA not compete for hearts and minds by being as “socially responsible” as possible. What will Mr. and Mrs. WBer think as they struggle to put food on the table, while their legislators cruise past in nice air-conditioned luxury sedans?

Pardon me for preferring Fayyad & co. to HAMAS; personally, I would hope that when Fayyad & co. receive cash, they use it in an effective manner that stabilizes Fayyad’s government, and thus stabilizes chances for peace with Israel, and thus is good for Israel. I guess that does makes me biased – biased in favor of governments that are willing to negotiate peace, and in favor of policies that don’t provide free vehicles for the use of legislators, including HAMAS ones.

4. If Israel were as desperately cash-starved as the PA is supposed to be, I would ***SAVAGELY*** condemn any Israeli leader, government or party that spent $9m to buy cars for legislators to drive, regardless of WHICH party did something so incredibly short-sighted.

But then, I am as comfortable with condemning stupid policies enacted by my own leaders, as I am with praising smart and beneficial ones, or condemning stupid policies by others.

(Does that make me an equal-opportunity commentator?)

5. Regarding Khaled abu Toameh, the man is a type of journalist called a “muck-raker.” He shines a light into the nasty little corners of government/society and exposes some of the stuff that people in power wish to hide from the rest of us. Muckrakers are generally hated by people in power, and by their supporters. But they do perform a valuable service for society. Abu Toameh is also a forceful proponent of a free press. He refused to be intimidated into following the official line as so many other journalists in the PA did. He has been hated for that.

Let’s note that he also writes non-muckraker style articles, e.g. this one, and articles that explain Palestinian perspectives (no one should ever think that there is only one Palestinian perspective) on negative Israeli actions; I doubt that there are many Palestinian reporters who do the reverse, and write positive things about Israel as well as negative ones (you can correct me if I’m wrong).

Abu Toameh is okay.

In the $70,000 cars case, setting aside your dislike of the reporter, it’s very much worth asking questions about the policy.

6. The $70,000 price tag per car did indeed shock me. I am glad to see that it shocked you too. $70,000 would be a luxury car, and no, it wouldn’t be a Hummer, it would be a high-end Mercedes with lots of features, or the like, probably with high mark-up. Here is a Mercedes Benz CLK 550 Cabriolet for $73,000 US. High-end prices for other Mercedes lines can exceed $90K US. (remember that the USD is low right now)

You say there is something stinky about the article; but perhaps the stinky thing is the policy itself.

7. Why is the PA doing this NOW? There is always time to buy luxury cars later, either after peaceful relations leads to a rapidly growing Palestinian economy, or at LEAST after HAMAS legislators are not the majority of beneficiaries of these spanking-new automobiles.

So anyway, Ramzi, you made some assumptions in responding to me that were neither accurate nor particularly fair. I posted my questions out of a desire to find out why they are *doing* this, given that I think that it’s actually against the best interests of Palestinians (and thus harmful toward peace and thus harmful to Israelis), and out of a desire to find out whether people in the WB are upset about it and thus whether it might be overturned and replaced with more intelligent use of the $9m. In return, you attacked me as biased, when if anything I have a bias in favor of Fayyad as long as he is advancing Israel/Palestinian peace. Also, you apparently assumed that I am an idiot; well, maybe I *am* an idiot, but thank heavens I am not dumb enough to think that the PA was buying cars for legislators as gifts!

If the personal nature of your response was due to my poor phrasing and meager powers of communication, then I forgive you for this misunderstanding

My comment is awaiting moderation. Help, Yaeli!

Zvi, mine went right through. Something is definitely wrong because those who post or comment here do not need to go through moderation. I have had the same problem recently but not today. Grrrrrrrrrrrrr This is so annoying and it greatly interferes with our ability to carry on a conversation. . .

Lynne, it is a long comment and it has 2 links in it. It’s possible that either length, or links, or a combination, causes comments to go into needs-moderation limbo. I just hope that it gets through and ends up in the right place!

Zvi, I’m looking forward to reading your comment—and now that I KNOW that it is coming—I am eager (and impatient) to read it Hope that Yaeli checks soon to see if any comments are hung up in moderation.You are right; it could be the length or the links (probably the links) that has the program thinking that it is spam or something.

Ibraheem does not exist:
1. Ibraheem does not exist because Palestinians want to say their story from a certain angle and a certain selective choice of historical dates and obscuring all data to suit their target. Palestinian target which is explicit by some and implicit by others is the complete destruction of Israel. I have never met a Palestinian who does not wish or act for that. I met a lot and all sort of Palestinians.
2. Ibraheem does not exist because some Palestinians like Ramzi want to flood the Israeli consciousness and conscience with sad pictures to make them compassionate to the Palestinian terrorist activities. The story always go like: yes this is a terrorist activity but… There is always a “but. I hear the same story in Iraq. Yes Alqaeda is doing terrorist acts but… The “but” in Iraq is still primitive and obvious where as with the Palestinians the “but” has become smarter.
3. Ibraheem does not exist because Palestinians like Ramzi want to contribute to the “struggle” or the “Liberation of Palestine” in their own way. Of course people like Ramzi will not live among the average Palestinians because they think you can not live with such people. Of course, Ramzi forgets to tell you that Palestinian Christians are leaving and diminishing in numbers because they simply can not survive or live among the rest of Palestinians. The kind of hostility and hatred nurtured in the Palestinian community is being reflected on its own community. That is why you see many Palestinians fighting each other and not able to respect the existence of the different other among them. When hatred and terror can not find external subject it turns to its inside and manifest itself among people with slightest of any kind of difference. Last week even Jihad had fights with Hamas and that is why last month Fateh and Hamas fought. That is why Palestinian Christians are simply leaving.
4. Ibraheem does not exist because Ramzi does not want to be reminded that Palestinians had a fight with Jordanians in late sixties. Thousands got killed.
5. Ibraheem does not exist because Ramzi does not want to be reminded that Palestinians had a fight in the seventies with Syrians and thousands got killed.
6. Ibraheem does not exist because Ramzi does not want to be reminded that Palestinians had a fight in the sixties, seventies, Eighties, Nineties and now with Lebanese of all sects in which hundreds of thousands got killed.
7. Ibraheem does not exist because Ramzi does not want to be reminded that Palestinians had fight with the Kuwaities in the nineties in which hundreds got killed and it ended up with Kuwaities deporting about 350,000 Palestinians away from Kuwait.
8. Ibraheem does not exist because Ramzi does not want to be reminded that the thousands of Palestinians who left to Sudan in the Eighties tried to act like they did in every Arab country they land in but Sudanese people treated them like they treat Baboon trespassers. Meaning they butchered some and hanged them from the trees to teach the trespassers a lesson. All Palestinians left after that.

Look Ramzi, you can exploit those Israelis who live in the “Now”, whose affinity for peace is profound, who lack real time exposure to Palestinians and who are pragmatic enough to detach themselves from ideology. However, remember not all of them remind blind. Palestinians lost the Peace lovers among Israelis because of tactics followed by the kinds of you. You say something and Palestinian terrorists say something else. If you want real peace you go and advocate it among your people, you can not even live in peace among each other. Ramzi I do not hate Palestinians or Arabs. I just know them and I hate the destructive pattern in their behavior, there is more to life than hostility, fight, struggle and to the rest of blab blab.

Ibraheem which country are you living in and if it’s a different country then where you were born, what’s your country of birth?

(i think this is a legal question, given that all posters here supply this information)

Regarding this $70,000 cars for each member of the Hamas-dominated Palestinian Legislative Council and and Hamas legislators will also receive them,according to the Palestinian sources Khaled Abu Toameh:

Who is going to pay for this waste of money by PA? Does the EU Parliament realize that their over €500m (USD 650 million) plus a year goes to pay for this?

Ramzi, Lynne, & all – my response to Ramzi appears to have been released from moderation, but it’s way up there above the subsequent comments. Click on the following link to go to it:

http://gnblog.com/?p=254#comment-38582

Thanks.

Zvi,

” Rather than attacking me ”

I didn’t attack you , i attacked the Article, my comment was about the Article and had nothing to do with you! I never said anything about you, Read my comment again….

Sorry if my comment wasn’t clear enough …

Ibraheem, I do respect you and look forward to reading your comments here. You make a valuable contribution to the dialogue on this blog. I do think that you are misreading Ramzi. I have never felt that Ramzi ever defended terrorism in any form. He has been a strong advocate for peace –for good neighborly relationships in the ME—a dream that I believe we all share, however elusive that may seem or be. He shares his ideas, thoughts and experiences here, the same way that we all do.
Yes, I know the Palestinian history–at least the history of some Palestinians. Who has written the history of those good Palestinian people who live their lives peacefully, hoping for true peace and cooperation in the ME among all neighbors? I hope we can avoid lumping them together with those who are violent and aggressive. I hate it when people blame me and all Americans for some action of the US government that I have no control over. The people who have the power (and the weapons) are the ones making the decisions for many, many people.

Lynne -

Hunkering down and silently hoping is, from a practical perspective, equivalent to hunkering down and wanting to kill everyone. Reminds me of Hitler’s secretary, Traudl Junge.

Ramzi -

When you’ll present me with facts, I will gladly analyze and utilize them.

Raccoon, I am not suggesting that. I suggest that we continue to exchange ideas and to talk here as a means of improving relationships among neighbors. It’s up to all of us to be as involved as we can in order to try to bring about political change and the peace that we all seek for the Middle East.

“Reminds me of Hitler’s secretary, Traudl Junge.”

Explanation, please?

Ramzi, all right.

So then any comments on my questions and points?

Thanks.

Zvi, wish we could figure out why the comments are being held in moderation (it’s not on purpose) and why they are posted out of order.

Tsedek, Basically I was born and raised in Lebanon, I lived and worked for a long time in Arab countries met all Arab nationalities and interacted with all kind of local cultures. I still go around but recently I have been temporary stationed in Lebanon. What I know about Arabs is from living among them. What I know about Jews I know from blood kinship, from reading, from mental-emotional habits passed down to one of my parents and from trying to figure out what is this Arab – Israeli conflict all about since it is affecting my sense of identity and was a big source of social pressure from my peers.
In the beginning it was difficult for me to sort things out but with time, reading, exposure, asking, interaction with people it became easier to resolve the conflict. The conflict is external to you, to me it was internal. There is always room to learn more. To you the conflict is difficult to assess since you judge it by principles, ethics and by the value systems that you carry. You even detach yourself from History. I have this system in me and I use it too. However, I have another practical reference system of assessment: I always say: Arabs can not live in peace and harmony among each other; they keep on destroying each other for the slightest of difference. Do you know how many lives Arab – Arab wars claimed in the 20th century alone from Algeria, to Yemen, to Syria, to Lebanon, to Iraq, to Kuwait to the rest of the long list?
Israelis are not at the perfect level of humanity but are among the current top; humanity over all have problems and Israelis Included. They displayed more tendency and inclination towards peace in an adventurous ways and in many places on different occasions. Israeli populace display genuine affinity towards peace and sometimes it is a Romantic and unpractical affinity and this makes them vulnerable to the rhetoric of people like Ramzi.
Lynne, trust me I am not misreading Ramzi. Ramzi whether honest or dishonest is preaching, advocating and expanding his energy among the wrong people. We all believe in peace, diversity, democracy, love and respect for human life. I want to see his courage and energy directed among his own people. Personally I can not hate anybody but I would not tolerate BS. When Ramzi makes a difference in his community he will find you waiting for him and his people to shape a better future for our children. What Ramzi ,or what he represents, did in the latest years was diminishing the number of Israelis believing peace is possible with Palestinians.

PS: TSEDEK: No I did not immigrate though I was there for short period of time

Ibraheem, respectfully, I think that you under-estimate Ramzi, who does advocate among his own people and works within his own community for peace. This is a brave choice. I find Ramzi serious for one so young (he is in college). And courageous. Admirable. I believe that it is his intention to make a difference in his community. He does not have to come here and post, comment and respond to all of us, but he does so even when it is bound to be frustrating at times. Remember that we do all come from very different perspectives, experiences, and situations on this blog, and yet we do come together to try to improve our understanding and compassion for each other. I am thinking of a time when Ramzi criticized one of the American leaders, and I kept posting comments giving “additional” information, not denying what he said but not agreeing exactly either…I had to stop and think about what I was trying to do, and basically it was that I was just trying to say “yes, that is so, but there is more to it than that.” So finally, I just managed to stop myself from going on and on and said that. Later, I thought about how hard that was for me to express myself and to stop dismissing his concerns and thoughts.

Thank you Ibraheem for telling all that. I understand you are/were thrown into an internal conflicting world. That must have been/is hard on anyone, especially for children born into it. Don’t judge too fast though about other people not experiencing internal conflicts brought on by their environments.

I hope I don’t insult you because that’s really not my intention at all, but I think you’re wrong in your assessment about Ramzi. People like Ramzi who see things the right way (from wherever on the face of the earth) meaning diplomatic, peaceful and fair solutions supporting, should not be attacked for ‘talking to the wrong people’ because they should ‘talk to their own people’. Ramzi should not be discouraged by personal attacks because if one looks into the right direction and that direction keeps on spitting in your face, finally you will turn away from that direction because it shows you that no matter how well you mean, nothing stops the spitting. This I put rather bluntly, but isn’t meant like that. It’s metaphorically said. I hope you understand I didn’t mean to critize you but only give my opinion.

Noga -

I was reminded of Frau Junge’s attitude – see the best, ignore the worst, hope that everything will be alright.

And of her eventual conclusion… that by her silent hope and optimistic blindness, she served as an important part of a huge machine of genocide.

Raccoon, I certainly agree that blind optimism is ineffective at least, and potentially extremely dangerous.
I struggle to maintain a degree of hope and optimism. This blog does give me hope. We are still talking in spite of disagreements and other having perspectives and views. I appreciate the fact that people who post and comment here are open to listening, are capable of modifying their views, are willing to continue to talk and learn from each other, and that everyone here acknowledges that we are talking about highly complex issues for which there will be no simple solutions. And, it is ok if we do not agree on a matter; we don’t have to use that as a basis of hating each other — and we continue to try to build relationships among neighbors.

OK, I admit I answered Ramzi in the beginning based on a kind of stereotyping. Once you are exposed to various cultures, various ways of thinking, different people in same culture you tend to know automatically what each person is aiming at or to which school of thought he belongs in that culture. It happens I am directly and deeply involved with Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese and I claim I know their various schools of thoughts. I depended on my six sense, accumulated experience and the pattern of logic or rhetoric that I am aware of. Knowing that this would be an arrogant statement which prevents a person from furthering his understanding and learning and for the sake of fairness I am:
1. Re-reading Ramzi’s original Blog.
2. Reading the comments of Lynn, Tsedek, Moshe and all the rest of the commentators to check for the error or set backs in my knowledge or mental process.

I will take passages of Ramzi’s Blog trying to analyze and appraise it:
1. On his second Paragraph: “First of all, Hamas took over Gaza and signed its death sentence with its own hands. I can’t help but rejoice! Yes it’s not a secret, I’m Pro Socialism, Pragmatism and Secularism so I can’t be pro Hamas, It’s my Democratic right I guess…No? I won’t say that I hate Hamas simply because; it’s a waste of energy to hate a whole movement that doesn’t give a damn about my very own existence. Anyways, moving on…” Hamas is a reality and is the Palestinian people’s choice. If Ramzi uses vocabulary like “Death sentence” with his own people how could you believe he is capable of peace with Israelis? Hamas is a terrorist and undemocratic organization that will not allow any body else to govern after it takes control but this is beside the point. I am appraising Ramzi now, we are looking at a guy who wishes and acts to death of his own people so how do you expect him to give Israelis peace?
2. On his 3rd, 4th and 5th paragraphs I observe Ramzi polishing PLO, Abbas and Palestinian police. They are the same people that started the pattern of Havoc all over their history. They started the same process in Jordan which led to war between Jordanians and Palestinians. Same in Syria. Same in Lebanon which lead to years of wars, hundreds of thousands of death and large amount of destruction. Those same people started the Israeli – Palestinian conflict in 2000 in the West Bank in which Arafat was aiming at doing the same what he did in Lebanon which would have eventually lead to a mini Lebanon the least or mini Iraq at his wildest dreams. I do not see Palestinians giving anything they are just requesting and taking. They are saying: you either deal with us or with Hamas. This is BS, what is the difference between them?
3. On the 6th paragraph he is quoting Rice. He neglects to see that PA had control over West Bank and they just built a big infrastructure for terrorists. Now if an entity is aiming at peace would it have done that?? The Israelis let Arafat in so as to have peace they did not intend to come back.
4. Paragraph 7 is chit chat.
5. In paragraph 8 the vocabulary of: rivals, God, military power to crush him, “constitutional and presidential powers, crushed, cleaning, control, forcing… This does not reflect a democratic process it just reflect a Mafia and tribal entity. If you expect some positive outcome from such entity you would be dreaming same like you expected peace to come out from Arafat the Terrorist.
6. In paragraph 9, Ramzi uses Hezbollah, Iran and hate Hamas as a verbal bribe to befriend Israelis. What is the difference between Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran and Al-Aqsa Martyrs?? This is B.S.
7. The next paragraphs are just a political opinion with scattered ideas irrelevant to appraising Ramzi.

What I see is that Ramzi is saying:
1. Hamas is Bad.
2. Hamas does not represent the Palestinian’s choices.
3. Iran & Hezbollah are bad.
4. Abbas is good.
5. Alaqsa – Martyrs could be friends to Israel.
6. Ramzi uses lots of hating and violent vocabulary.

Sorry I can not buy this. This is similar merchandise that Arafat used to sell and I never bought it in my life. Ramzi falls into the pattern of Palestinian that says: Palestinians are peace loving people, Extremists do not represent Palestinian people, We can not give you anything because extremists are on our back, we want to take everything from you without promising or giving you anything, Israeli army is bad, Israeli security measures create terrorism against Israelis, If Israeli civilian is killed it is because of Israeli state terrorism, Do not take any security measure to protect civilians because it agitates terrorists. Palestinians hate Iran, Hezbollah and Syria. Disregard all the Terrorists infra structure that Arafat and his PLO built in West Bank it was an illusion, Palestinians are peace lovers. So what are Palestinians giving Israel?

No Tsedek I do not feel offended or insulted. I do not feel angry any more because of hardship in my community as a child. I am way above that now.

” we are looking at a guy who wishes and acts to death of his own people so how do you expect him to give Israelis peace? ” I’m not a Virus or a Bacteria that you are studying, so just don’t Look at me … Who are the ” WE” you are talking about ??? Talk for yourself … don’t put everyone in the same basket !

” In paragraph 9, Ramzi uses Hezbollah, Iran and hate Hamas as a verbal bribe to befriend Israelis ” …God i’m BRIGHT! am i doing all this ??? … oh no, he discovered my secret! Run Forest Run ….

I wish death for my own people ??? Really ? ” Hamas signed its death sentence” is a violent thing to say ? do you happen to know of anything called ” Second Degree” ? i really doubt it…. i don’t want anyone to die, all i’m saying is that Hamas signed its death sentence as a Movement …. and a movement is not a Person, it’s an entity ….that’s my belief, it’s my opinion, i never claimed that it was the truth, but I, like everyone else, am entitled to have my own opinions, i’m not forcing anything on anyone….i’m not a journalist, i’m not reporting Facts, i’m sharing ideas!

By now, i understand that you don’t like my ideas, it’s your right and i respect it, that you don’t like my vocabulary, it’s also your right and i respect it….i also see that you are a giving us a literal analysis of my post , it feels nice to be analysed , but keep in mind that i have nothing to do with literature, i’m not a poet, i’m not a professional writer … But i can also analyse your text, i can very well take words out of their context and quote you and do many things that will make everyone smile, probably cry!… If you really don’t like what i have to say, just don’t read it, nobody is forcing you to fight the devil that i seem to represent over here…

By the way, don’t you feel that you are quite arrogant when you judge people ? Who are you to give yourself the right to judge and decide what people feel ? As far as i am concerned, i have a few comments , first of all, go see a psychologist, you have a lot of Hate and anger … consider some anger management sessions ! You don’t know me, so don’t attack me personally, you don’t know my people, you don’t know my family, you don’t know my history, you don’t know what i stand for, you don’t know where i live, you don’t know how i live, you don’t know what i think, you don’t know what i believe, you don’t know anything, all you know is that i’m a palestinian who dared to think and to talk to the world …. not you nor any of your likes will ever stop me from doing what i feel i should do , you will never be able to shut me up or to make me change my stance or even change my style, i only have one piece of honest advice for you, you don’t like what i say, just do me a favor and don’t read it!

Ibraheem to sign one’s death sentence is metaphorical: according from what I understand of it means, it is doomed to fail.

Your point #2: you cannot generalize. I, as an Israeli, agree with Abu Mazen many times… Did you know that his life was threatened by Arafat because of his peace-progressing views? Those are things one doesn’t hear of, but I distinctly remember him both in an interview on tv and in a newspaper article talking around this subject when being asked so as not to accuse Arafat but leaving no doubt about it either. It was in the time between the meeting of Clinton, Peres, Abu Mazen and King Hussein in Jordan… After that meeting Arafat had him removed from his position in the Palestinian government….

Personally I don’t think Palestinians are all that free to speak out loud against “ruling clans and other ‘parties’ ” (sorry, Ramzi, but that’s my honest assesment after having heard some stories and read about it. And, when they do nobody is listening
Please have a look at the following link, and tell me if they are given any attention at all in the international media like the Hamas, or the Fath:

http://www.humanemergencemiddleeast.org/open-letter-to-Tony-Blair.php

and like them there exists many, many more – who are never given the stage to take this conflict into a positive direction. Not only does the Palestinian ‘rulers’ keep them in the dark, the whole world in co-operating with that. Negativity you battle with positivity, not with complaining about it. . .

I’m happy you don’t take my comments personally, Ibraheem – since this is my general opinion and just because it’s not the same as yours it doesn’t mean I don’t respect yours.

Ramzi:

I will answer what is relevant and of value only in what follows, I will not answer emotional comments:
1. May be I did not express myself properly. Arafat used to tell Americans that he is a better alternative than communists. Ramzi and many other Arab leaders are using the same tactics but with new demon: Hezbollah, Iran, Syria. The real demon in the whole system is the inability of Arab and Middle Eastern communities and leaders to understand civilized structure, civilized behavior respect of human life and importance of peace now. So in a way Ramzi, yes I think what you represent is just a continuity of the same old behavior.
2. Your vocabulary is full of violent words Ramzi which manifests the same predominant behavior. Violent people who can not respect the rights of others can not give peace.
3. It is t not that I do not like your ideas. I just see the same old prevailing pattern. Consistent and unchanging pattern of thinking, ideas, opinions do not lead to behavioral changes.
4. You have the right to say what ever you want Ramzi and speak to the world. If I do not like it I will just speak back. I just wanted you to preach among your people too and not preach in the choir. I am a peace loving person and I just wanted to shock you to take a closer look at what you are saying. It takes 2 to tango. If you want people to address your concerns you have to address their concerns. Arafat and the whole of Arab community behavior all over the Middle East make it very difficult to trust what an Arab says. Actions speak louder than words. Ramzi, Arabs kill each other for no reason do you want me to believe that they will choose to live in peaces with Israelis just because they wish it or because they are peace loving people by nature? Sorry, I can not believe that.
5. Ramzi it is not personal from my side. I admire the uniqueness of your will to seek peace with Israelis. This is very rare among Palestinians. I am sorry if I offended you with my antagonist methods. It is my way of scratching the surface of people to see their core.

Ibraheem, I respect your willingness to state boldly your difficult questions and concerns rather than hiding behind a polite facade. I am sure that Ramzi would rather hear those concerns as well in order to address them, however difficult it is to be confronted. It gives him the opportunity to state his opinions and his position. Ramzi is seldom at loss for words! (I like that about you, Ramzi)
Ibraheem, you do raise valid concerns. Be assured that Ramzi does respect the rights of others and is an advocate for peaceful relationships in the ME. He plans to live here in the ME, by choice, and wants a peaceful, positive environment. Ramzi does speak out for peace, and those of us who comment here are always cautioning people in countries where that is not safe to do so openly to be careful!
It is true that there is too much violence within Arab culture in the ME. Actually, there is too much violence everywhere, impossible to get away from it entirely. But don’t lump all Arabs together; they are a diverse group. Ramzi is unique, but he has friends and family who feel as he does and act as he does—seeking peace and a just and fair resolution to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. He has rejoiced that Fayyad and Abbas seem to be making good choices, choices that may lead to peace.
Ibraheem, I am glad that you take the time and make the effort to comment here.

“But don’t lump all Arabs together; they are a diverse group. Ramzi is unique, but he…”

This is not a comforting thought. It actually boosts Ibraheem’s demand that if Ramzi is genuinely interested in change, he should be speaking to his own people. That would take greater courage than coming to a blog populated by eager Israelis minded for peace and making compromises. Talking to Israelis is all nice and well, but Israelis cannot affect Palestinian public opinion. Palestinian, and other Arabs, can. This is what it means to come to terms with responsibility for one’s own life.

It’s also true that Arabs are a diverse group but all Arabs almost without exception are uniformly hostile to Israel and consider Zionism (if not Jewishness) as a swearword, a criminal identity.

There are indeed exceptions but they are extremely rare, and they usually know where their duty lies. Here is one such example:

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1411.htm

Noga, I guess I did not express myself clearly here or well. Ramzi is unique and he IS talking to his friends, family and those in his community. It is easy for those of us in Israel, the US, Canada, etc. to talk about speaking out boldly—but there is an element of risk–real danger–in speaking out in some places. If you read my comment again, I think you will see that I mention twice that Ramzi does speak out in his community (”advocates for peaceful relationships in the Middle East” and “has friends and family who share his ideas” , i.e. he discusses these things with friends and family). Many Arabs are hostile to Israel, but there are other Arabs who post and comment here who are not and who would like to see their countries establish friendly relations with Israel. Ramzi is unique because, well, because he is Ramzi!
Sorry not to be more clear in my comment. That is what I get for trying to do a quick comment before leaving the house this morning. Not enough coffee evidently!

Shame on u!!

Shame on who ??? on me ? Some people are funny…So funny that they prefer to stay anonymous! …. no bbfjebfurhgjr ?

Do you want a second chance to try to use words and explain your very interesting affirmative , yet primitive, statement ?

bbfjebfurhgjr …. You come from Kuwait …Right ??? how did i guess….how how how …

Just for your information: Do you happen to know that when you comment on a blog , you IP is logged ? So you can choose weird names such as ” bbfjebfurhgjr ” But know that you are very easily located…

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