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It’s probably just me, but I see this extremely relevant.

Well, I’m cautiously optimistic. And, I am hoping that if an agreement is reached, that goodwill will prevail on all sides and that an enormous effort will be made to promote the well-being of everyone involved (not just one “side”). Dalia, I’m with you on this, hoping for the best and most positive outcome.

Dalia
I am happy about the conference. In any case, any thing that could contribute to the well being and peace process of the region should be encourtaged. I don’ care if Iraniian government is trying to underestimate and undermine the event, the event is huge, Saudi Aribia is there and that makes it much more influencial, I see even Syria with all what had been saoid about not attening has decided to attyend. I pray for any thing good for all the countries and peace and happiness, and I hope this is a good restart.:)

Omeran,

I prefer this :

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/928139.html

.. I don’t care whether this conference will succeed or not , all i care about is that it’s finally taking place! I prefer to negotiate for years without results rather than to exchange bullets for 1 minute! … Negotiations never killed anyone, bullets killed a lot …

omeron: LOL! It’s a pretty good analogy.

Basically something has to happen. The situation, as is, is unacceptable to both sides. People shouldn’t have to live like this and won’t stand for it for long. The two options are violence or negotiations. If we go the violence route, things will get worse for everyone. Well, there may be some cynical political leaders who can use it to their advantage, but things will certainly get worse for us. Negotiations are preferable, simply by default. Even if neither side completely gets what they want, it would be better to salvage what little basis there is left for a peaceful and prosperous future. I imagine whatever they can come up with will be unsatisfying to many people on both sides. But if it’s between that and more warfare…

Hello Dalia,

I’m a journalist; I work for the French TV station France24, based in Paris. I am working on the web site of our channel (www.france24.com). I’m collecting reactions from bloggers on the Annapolis Conference. I’ve chosen your post called: Annapolis: Failure or Success? I would like to contact you. Can you send me un email?
I look forward to receiving a reply,

Best,

M.

Ah yes well we all agree here that starting with the negotiations is better than the violence. But that’s the whole point behind Annapolis, it is the starting point of the negotiations towards a final solution. But if both sides don’t agree on the basic issues then it seems that we are doomed not to agree at all, that is why annaoplis needs to succeed, even though some Israelis and Palestinians are against it and many think it will fail!
As much as I would hate all the credit go to Bush if it were to succeed, but working towards a solution is important at the moment.

Dalia –I’m glad I’m not the only one who went into “avoid avoid” mode right before the conference! And I’m betting for the same reasons: there is a sense of exhaustion that goes along with “haven’t I seen this movie before?” but as if you can’t remember all the details to it, just that there was angst evoked and you seem to remember that the ending really sucked. There’s also a sense that the movie might contain a train wreck and your favorite characters are aboard that train and you just can’t bear to watch in case they get creamed –right, someone call me when it is over, I’ll be right in the next room uh organizing my socks, and let me know is everyone ok? But now that it is starting, it is time to put off that sock organizing and hunker down behind a few pillows and stress-eat while watching I HATE not knowing the outcome and the stakes are high.

Good post, Dalia. This conference may be the turning point or it may not, but it won’t ever be known if it isn’t tried. I don’t know what can realistically be hoped for, but the fact that both Olmert and Abbas are so weak may, paradoxically, be the greatest cause for optimism.

I’m also in an avoidance mode, fearing to hope but at the same time trying to hang onto a shred of optimism. My nerves are so bad!!

Success!!!
At least I hope that this first successful agreement is a new beginning of a new kind of Peace. It seems that both sides have initially agreed, ofcourse there is a long road ahead of them it won’t be easy, but at least they are going to give it a try.
Rob, you have a point, I was just think this while listening to the speeches of both Abbas and Olmert. Both people thought all was lost when the giants (Arafat and Sharon) left the political scene… and then came weak Abbas and Olmert with little support from their people, but it seems that they are capable of achieving much more!

2008 just might be a better year than the last 7 years! At least I hope so…

Very briefly, I think the ultimate push from the Arabs will be to transform this process into an acknowledgement of the Arab Peace Proposal put for in the Arab Summit of 2002 held in Beirut.

That proposal called for the recognition of the state of Israel by all Arab countries, and a signing of a multilateral peace agreement between those and Israel, in return for Israel’s withdrawal from all Arab lands (Golan Heights and West Bank, included).

The proposal was rather vague on the return of Palestinain Refugees to their homes/villages in Israel-proper.

In any case, I’ll leave commentary on domestic Palestinian and Israeli political difficulties to accepting the above proposal to the Palestinian and Israeli bloggers on this site.

I think that this is essentially the only “viable” plan out there, and the Saudis’ presence at the conference might hint at movement of the Annapolis talks in this direction (the Saudis were the main sponsors behind the Arab Peace Proposal).

If this plan, or any other “viable” plan does manage to get a start at these talks, the next challenge will be [as with all peace initiatives] to protect it from the actions of hardliners on both sides.

While keeping my expectations low…i’m satisfied ! Finally,The power of weakness is gaining grounds….

Hello all,

I’ve been looking at this site for several months without commenting, but now I have a question and would like to hear what people from the region think. (I live in the U.S.) Like everyone else here, I have doubts about Annapolis. Ramzi’s first post, in particular, captured my views. I’ve heard comments from leaders that to me sound like they are basically saying we want peace if it’s easy and we can have it all our way, but if we don’t get what we want right away, we are ready to start killing. I mean this conflict has been going on in one form or another for more than a century; resolving it in a year seems a little unrealistic. Like Ramzi, I would really like to hear a commitment to solving the conflict peacefully, even if it takes years.

With that said, I wonder if something fundamental hasn’t changed. Both Abbas and Olmert are perceived as politically weak. It would seem in a situation like this, the best way to gain strength politically would be to run to the extreme – no to Israel for the Palestinians and no to Palestine for the Israelis. But that hasn’t happened. Instead both leaders have tried to bolster themselves by saying “I will make peace.” So my question is this, does this represent some type of shift? What if anything does it mean? And have the leaders gained by taking this position?

I feel I should introduce myself a little. I live in Washington (state), and a writer. I’m Jewish (reformed). My family on both sides came to the U.S in the late 1800s. My mother’s family is Lebanese Christian, mostly from Beirut (I know another argument on if I’m a Jew, yada, yada). My father’s family is Jewish, mostly from Syria and Turkey. The closest I’ve been to the region is Azerbaijan, although I really want to go to Israel and Lebanon and Syria. I keep waiting for peace, but as my wife, who has family around Tel Aviv reminds me, that may mean I will never go. I also have young children, so a long plane flight isn’t in my immediate future.

Woot! Positive so far, I think. Ok, I can start breathing like a normal human being again Obviously there are issues and obstacles ahead in large quantities but, on the other hand, who expected them to come out with a joint statement?! And there were definitely some pretty massive compromises on that joint statement on both sides (I know our side better and definitely massive compromises happened on our end for it to happen). Maybe low expectations and weak leaders are the way to go! I still hate Olmie though (Livni on the other hand…yo bolstering some respect for that girl, I mean a politician who actually says what they mean and has no corruption in the closet!)

Yaeli , Dalia, I was watching your pressidents waving to the cams, I was happy , I saved their picture, so far it is going well, see , no one even thought it would be as good to begin with, I know it is going to be effective.
It had been quite reasonable not to invite to bullies, but if things go on well, gradually perhaps thoses bullies will consider the Good for their people and harness their Pride, some times you need to be humble to nurture the purity and authenticity of your pride, Pride is not a concept to be dismissed altogether, it could bring about sense of identity and integrity, but every now and then you should take the child of your pride to the alter, to realise how truthful you are.
I am praying for our Middle East and for the peace, I see the assembly of the ingredients, I smell the cake, well we don’t know the procedure, but the cake would be a yummiI bet

I am holding my breath. Actually, I can hardly breathe. I don’t just want peace. I want beyond that; I want friendship with the Arab neighbors in the Middle East.

I’m cautiously optimistic. It seems like a fair stance to take. But it’s funny: after wishing for peace for so long, I realize that part of me can’t imagine it happening. I read Abbas’s statement about opening relations with West Jerusalem and thought, “Goodness…it might actually happen. What would that even be like?” I was a weird realization. Granted, I was very young at the time of the Oslo Accords and might just not be properly jaded. But still…what would peace be like? Not just the end of violence, but suddenly no longer being a pariah state in the middle of enemies? It seems like too much to hope for.

On the matter of East Jerusalem, what do you guys think is likely to happen? I guess we won’t know until we know, but I’m interested in hearing the Palestinian opinion on the issue. Do you think that Palestinians would be willing to let Israel keep the Jewish neighborhoods and the Wailing Wall, maybe in exchange for other concessions? I can’t imagine that Israelis would be willing to withdraw completely to 1967 borders.

lynn I want that peace too, all of us together, no more war, people happy and relieved, is that possible ? I hope….

Liat, the kotel will never (ever) be up for negotiating away so if there is to be peace, that will definitely be something the Palestinians will agree to. Something that is likely to be worked out would be to make the area including the kotel and Al Aqsa an international area belonging to both and with additional international oversight or something like that but giving up the wailing wall entirely, the most central and important holy place of the Jewish people, is not an option.

I also think the complete return to the 67 borders is a grandstanding position that is very much open for alteration behind the scenes –it simply isn’t viable to expect it and it would be impossible to implement it (think about how difficult was the removal of 9,000 people from Gaza and try to picture the removal of 500,000 people –and that only counts the Jewish Israelis living over the ‘67 borders and isn’t including the thousands of East Jerusalem arab residents who have been rushing to apply for Israeli citizenship in the last few months and who would also need to be compensated and removed into the interior). There will definitely be land-exchanges instead so that the large Jewish communities remain part of Israel and equivalent areas are made available for settlement to Palestinians. There will most likely also be development help given to help Palestinians settle and establish prosperous communities in those areas and perhaps in the many areas elsewhere in the west bank that are simply empty barren land, absolutely ripe for being developed and turned green.

And hey, that –greening up the land –is something that I think would be worthwhile for the Palestinian people to add to their nation-building agenda. It was foundational for us and an important part of making the country thrive. Maybe start a “plant a tree in Palestine” project and create national forests and green recreation areas on some of the areas of waqf land?

Kotel belongs to Judaism. Israe never wanted Al Alqsa. FUndamentally really there is no reason to fight. In a Jewish state, students go to school and learn arabic, learn Quran. I see lessons of Quran in arabic from an Israeli channel. There are much more common grounds to base the talks upon:)

Heh. As Yaeli has said, we’ve been to this movie before. Nothing has changed, really; why on Earth would anyone think the ending would be different?

I can tell you right now how this sham will go and how it’ll end:

There will be many photo-ops and enough dratt al-balat to tear a new hole in the ozon layer.

Israel will twist herself into a pretzel to accomodate everyone, offer everything except building concentration camps and putting all the Jews in them.

The Arabs will refuse every offer point-blank because of the missing ingredient mentioned above. Eventually, Israel will beg and suck cock enough for the Arabs to graciously accept most of what’s Israel offering – provided they have to give nothing in return. Then, due to American pressure, the Arabs will agree to say some empty words, maybe make a promise they have no intention of keeping (the words and promises will be in English – in Arabic it’ll be same old).

Then Israel will keep its side of the bargain, probably uprooting tens of thousands of Jews from their land; in the meanwhile, Israel will give the Palestinians weapons and money.

The Arab states will ignore everything they said during the conference;
The Palestinians will up their assaults on Israel, using the Israeli-gifted money and weapon to finance this. Thousands of Jews will die; hundreds of Palestinians will be killed in internal squabbling over who gets to kill the most Jews or who gets to keep the money and the weapons.

Oh, I almost forgot… if Syria can use the general Chambelainian spirit of the event to their advantage, they’ll get to kill some more Lebanese politicians and execute some more of their own dissidents.

The above prediction is based on more or less every other similar dratt al-balat meeting we had in the last, oh, 20 years or so (modified to fit the conditions of our times and the insanitity of Olmert’s Government of Worms).

dratt al-balat

LOL

reading at Nizo’s lately?

==============

Anyway, I am not at all ‘into it’. I’m not following it and not interested either. Sorry.

It’s precaution from disappointment.

When something decisive pointing at peace is achieved I will turn all my attention to it. Looking at flashy speeches and photographs has lost its charm for me, knowing how little they mean (from last time).

Tsedek -

I asknowleged Nizo’s trademark on that splendid turn of phrase at Drima’s place already

I am avoiding the news on the talks. My nerves cannot take it. I hope that there is good news for us all at the end of it, and I am waiting until the conclusion of the talks before I listen to any of the news.

Thanks Yael, for your reply. You’re probably right. My worry is that even if they do work out an agreement, there are going to be people on both sides who still don’t like it. And will be perfectly willing to fight against it. I wonder if we have what it takes to drag those people, kicking and screaming, into the future.

Liat, I think it comes down to people being willing to see “the other” as human beings worthy of care and respect as well as a value for peace and a normal life. I know that there are many people on both sides ready to do that and who do value peace. I hope that an agreement is reached and that the leaders are able to command enough respect to influence their followers to uphold an agreement and to move forward. I hope that calm and goodwill has a chance to prevail.

True…but you know there are people who won’t be able to do that. What will be done about them? We can only control our own thoughts, we can’t make other people compassionate, especially if they are too worried about losing something important to them.

Liat –nu, certainly on our side if there are right wing extremists who choose to use violence (throwing rocks at our soldiers, for instance) to oppose the process then I think they should be dragged kicking and screaming to jail. Anyone who uses any heavier kinds of violence (throwing acid or cement blocks, for instance) toward the soldiers should be treated as enemy combatants. That is just my personal opinion, of course.

Yaeli, I agree completely. If anyone on the Israeli side uses violence to undermine the peace process, they should be dealt with in the firmest manner possible. It is up to EACH side to deal with those who would undermine the agreement and for both sides to actively promote peace and goodwill at every opportunity.

And i have reasons to believe that this is what is happening! I’m very proud of Mahmoud Abbas! I’m very happy that we finally have a functional government, a government that is doing it’s job! Their agenda is advancing quite fast, they are reforming the police, reforming the security services, reforming the economy, trying to impose law and order by using their legitimate violence…. I have reasons to believe that this time, it’s different! Without having great expectations for the peace process, i can say without any doubt that on the Palestinian level, things are different! Thank you Hamas! …The Best enemy to have is the one that auto distructs itself!

They failed because Gaza is Hell nowadays, they failed because the population in gaza is suffering and they are the only ones to blaim, they failed because annapolis took place, they failed because they are totally isolated by everyone , they failed because their ideology is not realistic, they failed because their best friends are everyone’s worst enemies, they failed because the Palestinian Authority ( that many people seem to make fun of) legislated against them ( by controlling charity organisations, by controlling mosques, by raiding their headquarters in the WB, by reaffirming the fact that the only legitimate org to represent the palestinian people is the PLO ( it’s important to note that israel has been trying to fight hamas for the last 7 years, the PA managed to control them and to totally isolate them in less than 4 months, yes, they have Gaza, but not for too long..) …… and the more we will advance with this process, the more they will Fail! I just cross my fingers that nobody topples Olmert’s government, i cross my fingers that Lieberman and Bibi will also fail, because as far as i’m concerned, they are your own terrorists and enemies…

Ramzi so you think the conference has been a failure so far ? I think this is a going to work in lon run at least Ramzi
Ramzi I have a question, do you think people in Gaza back the authorities there, or they are scared of the authorities ? or they have too much problems as it just doesn’t matter who rules , the problsm stay as they seem ?

Ramzi, very good points made! I am crossing my fingers, holding my breath, and hoping for the best outcome. I’m not disappointed and I hope not to be–I am just terrified of failure or lack of progress. I think that the meeting alone though should be considered a degree of progress.

Elinor, i meant that the meeting was a success the ones who failed are the extremists!

Amen Amen Ramzi! This is very ture

what was accomplished ramzi?

Welcome, Mike! I didn’t read the whole thread until just now, but it’s great to hear from fresh voices.

Tsedek,

What was accomplished is that we prooved once again that we are able to talk instead of killing each other, in a world where everything is looking very gloomy, any tiny little ray of hope , any tiny little cessation of any kind of violence is to be greeted….. and in my sense , Annapolis was a success from this point of view, i’m sick and tired of being pessimistic about everything, if you sum up all the pessimism in this region, you will understand why we don’t advance! We always expect the worse … we never tried expecting anything positive( even during the peaks of the previous peace process)! We always feel betrayed by someone somewhere, we always feel that someone is cooking something that will kill us ( why do you think Rabin got killed, Netanyahu and sharon elected, Hamas elected, etc…it’s simply because people wanted to tell everyone that they are unsure about what they want..and that anyways,what they want is unrealistic on the long run, and yes, that’s a majority ) … I believe that the first step towards genuine peace is to drop this really useless and disgusting middle eastern attitude, peace is not out of reach, it’s just that WE are not able to reach it! And i would love to leave this group called ” us” once and for all and to start thinking for myself …. because, each time i do this, i feel very good and i see a brighter future!

how can there be progress when in the same time as two ‘enemies’ shake hands in a fancy office in eye of the whole world there goes on the dispropriation of land?
I will not mention hamas firing qassams, because hamas isn’t part of this ‘deal’, but israel is – so it should at least freeze its actions while negotiating.

Tsedek all building has been frozen by the government and no new building permits have been approved for the past 5 months, in fact. The people who are still trying to set up outposts are doing so illegally and without government permission, contravening law. The two teenagers caught trying to smuggle 3 suicide belts through a checkpoint from the West Bank into Israel the day after Annapolis were affiliated with Fatah’s military wing, Al Aqsa. They also were acting outside of the official Fatah position.

Yaeli, if the Israeli government wanted to prevent those ‘illgeal’ builders (but if you look at the palestinian blogs, land is being disapprionated every day still) you think they couldn’t?
To sit behind a desk and say “frozen” isn’t the same as acting to implement what you are saying.

And yes, sorry – I measure with two separate measure systems, but I still believe that the israeli government has way more control over their ‘citiziens’ than the Palestinians fatah..

Maybe you have read in the last week that they are very much doing their best to enforce law and order in the WB -

As Ramzi points out, many, many people are doing what they can and with goodwill. Unfortunately, all members of these two groups do not have buy-in and commitment to peace, and these people are causing trouble. I do not want to suggest action that the Palestinians should be taking to control the members of their group who are undermining the peace, because I do not know that society well enough to even begin to suggest a course of action. On Israel’s side, it seems that the government could bring the full force of the law to bear on those who are building illegally, and to meet with the members of those groups who continue to act illegally to try to secure their cooperation and commitment. Perhaps the government in Israel could look at ways to promote the settlement and development of acceptable areas of land.
Ramzi, I read your last sentence of the last comment, and I agree. It is almost impossible for me to even consider myself a member of any group, because my identity is primarily as an individual. I think independently and of all the things that I hate, it is a non-thinking “herd mentality”, and “Us and Them” mentality, a “My Side versus Your Side Philosophy”. I think that most of us who comment here probably feel that way to a degree, and perhaps to a very large degree. We are thinking outside of narrow parameters and this is why we are able to reach out to each other seeking understanding and developing compassion and appreciation for each other.

Lynne – believe what you will… but we both know that you will be buried in the same mass grave as the rest of “not us”. Your self-definition is not exactly relevant to people who want to kill you because you do belong to a certain group.

And here’s a little bit of that which will kill you.

Raccoon, you are right about the fact that “self-definition” won’t help any of us who are targeted by maniacs who hate us for who they perceive that we are. You are absolutely right about that fact and it’s a very scary fact.
We were just talking about who we feel that we are, not about this other serious issue, but just how we feel and how we see ourselves. It won’t protect us from extremists and crazies, true enough, but it defines our own personal philosophy. Self-definition did not protect the clerk here in the US in Dallas immediately after 9/11, who was killed by a crazy who thought that he was from the Middle East—the clerk was from Peru. The perpetrator of this murder was not only crazy but dumb.
Self-definition as we were discussing it here was just a conversation among friends
I just cannot look at the link you put up because I know it will scare me to death and make me more of a nervous wreck than I already am! Well, maybe I’ll look later when I feel more up to facing it, especially as you took the time to put it there for me!
I know that there are huge masses of people out there who have a mob mentality, who are quick and ready to use violence against others with no or little provocation. I take comfort in what Margaret Mead said which was something like: Small groups of committed people can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that has. Something to that effect. So here we have our small group, our little neighborhood of friends, who may in some way improve things in the world through our friendships and caring for each other. We may not always agree, but I hope that we always care for each other.

Elinor: I am just going out to go shopping for the ingredients that I need to make the date recipe that you gave us all. I did not make it before because we recently had Thanksgiving here, where everyone eats like it’s their last chance to ever do so! So, I’m off to get the items that I need to make it now. I’ll let you know how it turns out. I am brave enough to try it now that you and Ramzi straightened me out on the frying the flour issue.

lynne
I hope you enjoy it

Liat,

Thanks for the welcome. Because of the posting delay, it looks like I was moderated out of the discussion on this one. Oh well. This is a great site with lots of good comments. I love Middle Eastern food and liked the recipe post, but became sort of torture because there aren’t any good Middle Eastern restaurants where I live and no Middle Eastern markets to buy some ingredients and I’m not a very good cook. Maybe I can talk my wife into making something.

I’m not sure how often I’ll post. I have lots of opinions, but what I like is reading what people who live in the region or are in the region have to say about things.

Take care everybody.

Mike, good to have you commenting here! Visit as often as you can

Mike,

Move immediately! What is life without Middle Eastern food?

Just kidding, of course. Good to have you around!

A little late in getting to this discussion.

I agree that just meeting is better than the alternative of violence. My view is that, as always, both sides use the same words but have very different understanding of the meaning behind them. For example, “peace” to Israelis means the cessation of violence but to Palestinians it means having their rights (including the right of return), or the “recognition of Israel” to Israelis means having the Jewish state as it is currently (in terms of culture) where to many Arabs it seems to mean ‘we will recognize that there is a state called Israel and that you live here but the refugees have to have the option to go back to their homes and it will be a state for all’. Different definitions for the same word can often clash and this clash creates disappointment- we shrugged our shoulders after Oslo and said “I thought they believed in peace”. They do, we just define the concepts differently so the outcomes on the ground don’t match each of our definitions and resulting assumptions.

Part of what is going on now is taking out each of our understandings of who we are and what we want and debating it publicly with the other side (i.e. the “Jewish state” comments by Erekat, this forum, etc.). I think what is missing and is probably the most difficult step is really hearing what is important to each side and having some understanding of why it is important which really is our leaders’ job. For example, Israel as a Jewish state is a red line for me not because I am religious or could care less what holiday I celebrate but because it is an emotional security blanket for me. It is a code word that my people will be safe from violence and have control over our destiny, that Israel will remain the same in all its positive aspects. I assume that a Palestinian can make a similar argument for why the right of return is so important. The problem comes in when these concepts clash and people are too stuck in the conflict to want to hear what the other side really needs to move forward. So we repeat the cycles over and over.

In my opinion this is all related to how we define ourselves as a group and how threatening change is to group identity. For example, I think the One Million Voices events fell apart because Palestinians felt threatened by a change in the narrative from ‘Israeli vs. Palestinian’ to ‘extremist vs. moderate’. This change was viewed with suspicion (by both sides) and ultimately failed to mobilize the masses because it didn’t fit into the concepts of how we define ourselves. No one could quite put their finger on what the organization stood for so conspiracy theories had to be invented to plug the holes.

I truly hope that in the coming year our leaders will become wise enough to make decisions on our behalf that create some understanding between the two peoples and create a process to find solutions.

Ramzi, see the following link on self-fulfilling prophecies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-fulfilling_prophecy. It is a little bit simplistic but it gives what you said above validity.

Mike, very glad to have you with us! Finding the legitimate new commenters among the spam that gets caught up in moderation has been slow-going because of a new spamming tactic –I’m really sorry for the delay in getting yours up. Hey, lots of opinions on things is good and I’m looking forward to hearing them!

Corey, I agree absolutely. Israel as a Jewish State is very much a red line for me and I am also not religious.

I don’t really think that Israel being a Jewish State has any right to be up for debate –Israel was clearly, with the no less than 25 mentions of the creation of a “Jewish State” for the Jewish people, officially designated as a Jewish State in the United Nations resolution that established the State of Israel.

And of course, the word Israel, in and of itself, means Jewish –the Israelites from the bible were all Jews. In other words, Israelites –the Children of the Land of Israel –is simply another word for Jews. The word “Israel” means “the homeland of the Jews.” That is its definition. That is why it was chosen when our nation was officially declared.

Israel is such a little bitty bit of land in the world, that surely it could be the homeland for the Jewish people who have suffered persecution elsewhere among intolerant people. I feel just as strongly that the Palestinian people should also have a homeland. These two places just cannot be in the same place

I realize Israel as a Jewish state is not the topic but let me add one more thing before someone makes assumptions and reacts. I (and I believe the majority of Jewish Israelis) really do want the Palestinian minority in Israel (Israeli Arabs) to have full and equal rights and obligations. I think we are making a fundamental mistake by marginalizing Arabs in Israel. And I believe that the two concepts (Israel as a Jewish state and Arab-Israeli rights) do not have to be mutually exclusive.

Corey, of course! They are in no way mutually exclusive. Israel is a democratic country and, as such, all citizens regardless of religion or ethnicity are guaranteed equal rights. It all looks quite good on paper but that doesn’t mean that there aren’t people who discriminate despite that. There are many who do engage in discriminatory practices (against arabs, but also against ethiopians, against russian immigrants, and so forth). In terms of obligations, the equality is less democratically applied, especially when it comes to National Service or serving in the military. Serving in one or the other is an obligation that every citizen should be required to fulfill and none of this exceptions for the ultra-religious or for non-Jews. Doing national service within one’s own community (helping the elderly, tutoring the kids at risk, building playgrounds and so forth) should definitely be a requirement for all those who, for whatever reason (religious, physical disability, and so forth) do not wish to serve in the military. The state has obligations to its citizens but the citizens, in turn, have obligations to their country. Certainly when the perception is changed that particular segments of society are not pulling their own weight then prejudicial feelings against them will also change. Prejudicial feelings toward both the ultra-religious Jews and arab-israelis stem to a huge extent from the fact that they are released from the base obligations required of all other citizens.

Ramzi today was in the news that Palestinian National Guard fired upon a suspicious car (they thought criminal involvement) and a group of Israeli mishta’arim that were in the car were firing back at them, killing one Palestinian policeman. This was near Bethlehem. You know what I am feeling?

I feel like when we past the Palestinian National Guard (all those stopping cars when we drove) I could fully rely on them if I would be ‘caught’ (because I think they would send me to the Israeli area of control) but now, with things like this happening in where people doing their duty are getting killed – I, myself, cannot rely on them anymore because of what the mishta’arim did.

Do you have any thoughts on this? Am i seeing this too black/white? Am I exaggerating? Or?

Tsedek!

I’m as disgusted as you, First of all, because i know that nothing will happen and that nobody will speak up against what happened, and because some sick minded people, and yes, SICK MINDED PEOPLE , i repeat , find it totally justifiable to kill “Palestinian national guards” , i was reading the YNETnews.com news flash about this incident today , you know what they wrote ? ” Palestinian policeman died after a shootout broke between IDF and Palestinian Gunmen” WHAT THE HECK ? no, the palestinian policeman was doing what he should have done, he should have killed them all ( since this would have been the case if the Palestinian National Guards entered israeli territory …) …when we talk about Law and Order, it must be the same everywhere and imposed on everyone! And yes, we should not allow these CRIMINALS to enter our territories again ! no matter who sent them, they are criminals and if there was a real democracy next to us, a court of justice has to intervene at some point, we both know that it won’t! …. if the israeli establishement really wanted peace, there are many ways to inform the other side about the dangerous people that should be stopped or at least questioned! I don’t see the French Army entering Belgian, helvetic or spanish territory to liquidate ” wanted people”…

This is what happens when an Army has a State … and whether some people like it or not, in Israel, it’s the army that has a state and not the state that has an army…..one day, someone will have to realize that a political leadership is needed ! You know who didn’t allow Barak to sign a peace agreement with syria ? … The Army! You know who is not making it easy for olmert to make peace nowadays ? The ARMY ! You know who is against every kind of appeasement in the region ? the ARMY!!!! Who wants to attack Iran at any price ? The Army! …. It’s very nice to talk about the ” only democracy in the middle east”… but to be HONEST, i really believe that there isn’t any real democracy in the middle east! We have to put an end to the useless illusions … either we wake up and take real steps towards real peace ( where the political echelon controls the army and not the contrary) or we shut up and accept war! Israel is more or less a pseudo-democratic Junta …. as for the other countries of the region , well …. Palestine doesn’t exist, and the other arab countries are dictatoriships, where the slightest “opposition” feeling is crushed before it’s birth …then we wonder why people become suicide bombers ?

I agree wholeheartedly that innocent people should not be killed. I do want to say that I know nothing about this incident, but I do believe that there will be incidents that will threaten the peace and that we must not let that happen. We can guard against those generalizations by accepting that every group has people in it who are good, bad and in-between, and no one person or incident can characterize an entire society or group. There is too much variation and diversity for that to be true. It is totally impossible for me to talk about the American people—too many different people and too much variation ranging from homicidal maniacs to people who are nearly angels.
In regard to the incident above, we must take it for what it is: one incident. In a mob, an incident can spark a series of dramatic events, but we are not a mob with a mob mentality. I believe that we all accept that every group is diverse–wildly diverse.
The Army is a group like any other and there is diversity there as well. I believe that there is diversity within the Palestinian National Guards. It may be said that each group is characterized by good people with good intentions, but there are likely “some rotten apples in every barrel” as the saying goes. Regrettably. We all suffer from bad people with bad intentions. Our optimism and hope soars when we hear of good people and good deeds. It’s the way life is.

Ramzi, thanks for your thoughts. There were 2 National Guard Policemen involved in the killing of a settler one month ago. I think it’s OK for Israel to ‘probe’ because obviously (I think) Israel also would like to trust the National Guards. But, and this is where I get into conflict with myself because it doesn’t make sense to me: EVERY LIFE IS A WHOLE WORLD. The life of that National Guard policeman that was taken in this incident is worth just as much as that of this settler that was killed – and BEFORE risking anyone’s life by entering (and in a suspicious car no less) the autonomy of ’someone else’ Israel should act according to how ‘the normal world’ would react and by TALKING with the person responsible for the National Guard’s actions ask for co-operation. I think this would not only be a ‘correct’ thing to do, but mostly (if I would be a National Guard) that would show equal-ness and ‘real’ partnership having the same goal for eyes.

What bothers me most is that this policeman’s life is not even a subject of thought, it is mentioned and one doesn’t even think about how he maybe had a wife, children…. aspirations for a career… a mother, father. It bothers me because when we drove around I was counting on that if I was ‘caught’, my life, consisting out of all that as well, I would trust in ‘his’ hands. It bothers me because with this ‘mishta’arim’ action they killed (or are trying to kill) every effort in trustbuilding. It bothers me because I am very, very angry about this.

Tsedek,

the difference between those who killed the settler and these undercover soldiers is that they did it individually without anybody’s order! There certainly wasn’t a whole institution behind them! unlike the soldiers!

As for the Policeman , he had a wife and 4 children, he was 36 years old and lived in Deir Salah, north of bethlehem ….

The death of every human being is a tragedy! But now, it’s clear to me that the life of some is much more important and valuebal than the life of some others…..

Yes. Maybe that is the core of the problems actually. ONLY when everybody start caring about the lives of everybody and not only who they consider ‘their own’ – there is a peace possible….

I realize that this is probably completely inappropriate but I have been wanting to reply to Racoon’s statements above for a week with the following http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbexhNqakvk

Excellent Corey! EXCELLENT! now that’s a creative idea…. :p

now, the question remains: what do you understand under peace?

coexistence between the people! Peace and normal relations between the communities! Equal opportunity for all! Equal rights for all! … two states or not isn’t that much of a question when you are inside my mind, i’m for regionalisation!…but i don’t mind two different states as long as social and economical relations are safeguarded! I don’t mind calling the land next to me israel, i don’t mind befriending israelis ( as you already know it), But i would like that the other side doesn’t undermine the fact that i live on my Palestine, that i am not a terrorist and that i deserve equal rights, i’m for freedom of movement between the two states, we don’t need ” physical frontiers” we need geopolitical ones! Without social relations, we will never have peace. That’s my vision of peace….on the very long run!

For the time being, we need to take “affirmative action” to make sure that everyone gets what he really deserves by the “univeral, international’ law and not by a law he created….We need our independence, you need your security, we need our security …it’s only by working together that we will reach these goals! …. the rest will surely come with time as long as we keep criminals ( settlers, extremists, bombers , …) out of our ways!

but do you consider ’sucking up’ (like the youtube clip) a form of reaching TRUE peace?

if the roots are rotten, does the flower have a real chance to survive?

Sweet ramzi, don’t you know yet that ‘we’ are not ‘at war’ but the extremists (from both sides) are dragging us, you and me, into deeper and deeper holes of situations neither you or me can protest about because moderate voices are always overshouted (never heard) because of their actions?

Tsedek, my comment about the video was ironic actually …:)

I know

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