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So, there’s a chance that this time there will actually be more than one candidate for presidency?

Hmm, on a second read, my last comment is somewhat patronizing and not that funny.
Sorry if someone got offended.
It does makes me curious, though –
What is the declared purpose of this ‘presidential referendum’?
What do the people think about it?

Yaser –what exactly does the parliament do? You noted that the President is able to pass laws without involving the parliament and that its powers are very limited. Can you fill us in on what powers it does have and what role it plays?

I’m also curious about what people think of the presidential referendum

Omeran my friend,

Your first comment was not funny ok, BUT it was TRUE and that’s what makes it not funny! We in the Arab World have one day to open our eyes on this and act against it! One day, we will have to do the hard job of opening our eyes and of saying NOT ANYMORE! with all due respect to the so called progressist arab leaders, they have a very very long way to go because they still didn’t understand that one day or another, they should give back the ability to DECIDE to the people! they should give people the Ability to think freely! To choose freely! A Presidential referendum is everything but Democratic! It’s easy to ask the people if they love you, while they feel that if they say that they don’t, they will spend their lives in prison! They will surely vote in your favor! Our arab world has almost everything in order to become SOMETHING huge, to become a superpower…. but it lacks only one thing…and this thing is : Real Freedom!

The presidential referendum is held on a regular basis every seven years, A candidate for president is first proposed by the Baath Party and nominated by parliament After the nomination process, the candidate is then confirmed by a popular referendum in which the candidate must capture a majority of the votes. If the candidate fails to secure a majority, parliament nominates another candidate and the referendum process is repeated, Bashar Assad is seeking a second 7-year term .
people here actually don’t care that much because its known that president Bashar Alassad will win and with high percentage (normally over 80 percent) ,that’s why I wrote that the parliamentary election is very vital as we need to take steps to change the political landscape and to have a parliament that is autonomous and a parliament that can have real impact and an active role in political live ,
The current parliament discusses laws and budget, and proposes laws, the parliament can question ministers about laws and plans ,but doesn’t have the capacity to play an active role because it is just a façade to the real power that is in the hands of the president and the close circle around him.

Hello, I am new and have been perusing through this blog. All very interesting.

Along this topic, Yaser, how is it that Alassad can retain so much power? Is the Alawite hierarchy similar to the Sunni/Baath party formerly in Iraq?

Is their a fear that too much “freedom” will allow religious parties to seize control, similar to the Palestinian situation?

I agree with Ramzi. Omeran’s comment was not so much funny as it was true and sad. Arab countries need to start holding their leaders accountable. And that is not something that will happen as long as we have one candidate that’s guaranteed to win.

I wrote something about that with regards to a Lebanese MP by-election not too long ago, here on this blog.

Thank you Bad Vilbel, we are AT LEAST two in the arab world…i feel better…

Ramzi,
count me in

I am sure there are more than just us 3.

What we need is to continue spreading the word and getting more and more people like us to start seeing that they need to hold their leaders accountable.

For that to happen – and here, I speak from a Lebanon perspective – we need to get rid of the sectarian system that encourages people to basically vote for “their guy”, no matter how awful he is. And for the system to change, we’re going to have to have a revolution (not necessarily a bloody one, mind you). There simply is not incentive for the politicians who are currently in power, to change the system for us. It goes against their interests. It keeps them in power as it is.
The ONLY way this revolution is going to happen is if people start demanding things from their leaders and making said leader feel the consequences of not delivering on their promises.

Suggestions are welcome…

Well, that is true in the US as well. I was reading today in the local newspaper that millions of dollars were wrapped in bundles, thrown on pallets and shipped to Iraq— amounting to billions of dollars and no one can account for where it is or what was done with it. One thing is for sure: It did not go to support rebuilding and to assist the Iraqi people with health care and other vital needs. It did not provide security in any way for the Iraqi people. I am furious and feel totally helpless to change anything. People were put in charge of programs in Iraq to help the Iraqi people–I am thinking of the idiot who was put in charge of health care—a moron from the US with no real experience, with a narrow and bureaucratic mind, and without vision or even common sense.
The whole military and rebuilding effort in Iraq—what a disaster!!! It is such a mess that I don’t know how it can be resolved and how peace can be restored to Iraq. I agree that Saddam was terrible, but he must be replaced with a better system and situation for the Iraqi people. I am just exasperated.
The world is desperate for inspired leaders who have the good of all people at heart.

Syria has also affirmed its ongoing support for Hezbollah and Hamas. Does that send any kind of message to Syrians?

Lynne,

While it is true that corruption, or outright incompetence are the staple of governments everywhere, at least in the US you CAN do something about it. Maybe not everything you’d wish. But you can do SOMETHING.
You can go vote for “the other guy” at the next election (be it local, state or federal).
It is not the best system, sure, but there is SOME accountability and SOME oversight.

In most middle eastern countries, specially places like Syria where only one candidate ever runs, or places like Saudi Arabia, where they don’t even have elections at any level (they introduced some form of municipal elections only last year), there is ZERO accountability.

That’s what i always say Bad Vilbel! When you go to elections, people don’t look at who you are, they look at who you belong to! they look at your religion too! I hate saying this, but it’s true!

As a christian, not belonging to Fatah or Hamas, I have almost ZERO chances to win anything when it comes to national elections and i can’t accept this, i’m not a second class citizen and i will fight for this as much i will have to! We have to teach arabs to vote for who they THINK is good and not to who FORCES THEM to think that he is good! I even have a wild idea of making elections ANONYMOUS! For example, you give all the candidates NUMBERS , and people vote for numbers! for political program ( and not religious ones)…i am for a complete separation between State / church/ Mosque too…. and for a complete rewriting of the Arab constitutions…or maybe for the creation of ONE arab constitution for all of our countries… where there will be no religion, no death penalty, Liberty of Press, liberty of movement,freedom of trade, an Arab Court of justice ( yes…arab justice can exist…) completely independant from all states and ruled by leading judicial figures from all our countries, One foreign policy, an Arab parliement, partnerships with Non-Arab states ( Israel, Iran, Malaysia, Pakistan, India, The african union…) (Yes…in fact israel can be our very own switzerland…)… we also need a unique educational system based on freedom of thought and on progress, maybe sometime later we will be able to create our own central bank and our own currency.. the Aro ( euro…)!… Why not creating a functional progressive tax redistribution system in order to reduce poverty on an arab level…to create jobs and to fund social projects! Nowadays the best investments are the social ones and not the economic ones…

We have everything in order to make the best union ever : Human ressources, Territorial ressources and proximity, we have a lot of natural ressources( Oil, Water, Agriculture, empty spaces, potassium, coal, salt, natural gas, SEAS and Rivers etc…),we have more than a lot of tourisitcal attractions we have technological ressources ( Oracle for example is an Arab creation..), we have a common language!… we have a lot of industrial power and a lot of very very strong social ties! We have access to the most important Seas and rivers of the planet : the Mediterranean sea, the Red sea, the Nile, the dead sea, the arabian sea, the indian ocean, the atlantic ocean) … we have Territorial acess to Europe ( Syria – Turkey) , Territorial access to africa, to Asia… We are located on Two very big continents …

I think that this is the BEST recipe for a GREAT UNION! Rich, prosperous, open minded, peaceful, fun and everything else!

In order to have the REAL freedom that we are talking about, we have to start by making our leaders realize how important this UNION can be for us and for them! While all the world is uniting, we are doing everything to separate! South america just made the first few steps towards a south american union, Africa has the African union, europe the EU… etc… WE are not even talking about the possibility of a union between us! Why don’t we create a social movement in order to make leaders understand this ? Why don’t we create a Rubber bracelet saying ” Arab Union Now” ? … i really believe that this is the ONLY solution to all of our problems! all of them ! From the people to the people, that’s the only solution!

Rita,
I am against any support to extremist organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah ,and in order to stop this support we have to hold the regime accountable for its actions , the only way to do so is by working to achieve better representation of the people in all levels and that can be done through applying pressure for reforms of the political system in order to have a democratic elections that would bring a new policies that better represent and serve Syrian national interests

Bad V., you are right, of course. I am just frustrated with many things in the US right now. I am horrified by the terrible struggles of the Iraqi people, caused in great measure by our US intervention. The incompetence and corruption are infuriating. When I think of how that missing money could have benefited the people of Iraq it makes me despair. While it is true that we can make some changes, it is disappointing that we as a nation do not have more people with vision in the leadership. But you are right; the US government is so much better than most other governments around the world. I do recognize that and appreciate it.
Ramzi, your comment was so well-reasoned and inspiring. I hope that vision spreads somehow. I agree; it is essential to spread that message. I like the idea of the bracelet—which is symbolic in its own way, a concept embracing the diverse people of the ME.

Lynne: The U.S. had no business in Iraq, despite which the misery of the Iraqis is not solely that of the U.S. A strong dictator kept the religious factions in check; old hostilities previously festering in the background have simply been unleashed. Iraqis must find common purpose with one another – or decide to divide the geography appropriately to ensure sufficient space surrounds each disparate enclave.

Yaser: Wonderfully well put; as close to perfection as possible. There must be a useful beginning leading to a successful ending.

Ramzi S. What passion. Yours is a utopian vision. And why not? It’s exactly what is needed. Your desire is for elections free of religious bias, for candidates whose primary interest is the good of the people, the country; religion- and mission-neutral.
What we see instead is the weakness of human nature at its most elemental; tribal fears hearking back to primeval time when survival of the individual was inextricably linked to group identity, communal protection to he exclusion of outsiders challenging the tribe’s shelter and food sources.

Most certainly the Middle East is well endowed with natural resources, as well as huge populations of earnestly hard-working people, academic resources, tech-savvy resources. Somehow the opportunity to advance into the present has been absent; largely due as you point out to the fact that Arab countries are ruled as self-serving theocracies, kingdoms, playgrounds for despots. But it can change and will eventually, mostly because people like you have a vision that cannot be denied forever.

Your thoughts on geographic-state union based on that of the EU would solve many ills, once the intractable-seeming problem of unseating the political self-interest of those now ruling has been dealt with – for it could never come to fruition with the current ruling elite. Everyone is too jealous of their autonomous well-being. The EU was established under the guiding principle that post-war Europe was fractured and ineffectual. That together they could face the world united with harmonization of civil and criminal laws, administrative efforts leading to universally-shared scientific endeavours, food-safety, agricultural and environmental stabilization, with a common political, foreign, economic, social, justice and defence outlook. Weak single states on joining the EU are welcomed with assistance, preferential treatment, open borders.

Even so, there are often fractious arguments between the states, and the single currency of which you speak, the Euro, had a long time coming into being. A long, gradual process of determination. It’s a really nice thought that this could be translated and transferred to the Middle East. An potentially harmonic achievement.

With economic stability and hope held out to all the currently disenfranchised in the Arab world outsiders would be less likely to be singled out for blame for what is really an internal problem of inadequacy to address the real problems facing the Middle East. It’s circuitous. But your thinking is absolutely fundamental to change, incremental, bit by bit, persuading others that to open such avenues is to open up their future prosperity and well-being.

Long winded, aren’t I?

Ramzi and Rita,

I just started an Israeli website in support of an Asian Union a week ago. It’s in Hebrew and still very basic, so I’ll spare you the link at this point. It doesn’t advocate a Middle Eastern or Arab union, but a continental, cross-Asian union, at least as a (foreseeable or not) future goal. The concept of continental unions and an eventual world government has been a lifelong passion for me.
Ramzi, you brought a few examples to developing continental unions; the truth is that all continents in the world except Antarctica are currently working at some level on establishing unions after the model of the EU. Oceania has been considering a union in recent years because of concerns that as a result of global warming (what isn’t a result of global warming?…) some Oceanic islands will become inhabitable and require alternative housing for their citizens, while North America has unofficially launched intensive security co-operation between its three nations.
I’m not sure if you’re aware of the existence of this organization: http://www.acddialogue.com/web/1.php that marks the first signs of East-West Asian integration. You can read more on the subject here: http://www.au2010.org/, the background articles page is strongly recommended.

Sorry, I meant “uninhabitable” there.

IC, thanks for that interesting entry and your suggestions. I found the site whose address you posted really interesting. The background articles page particularly so.
The concept of an Asian union, particularly as it’s expressed by the author of the background is well thought out, obviously a work of great importance to its author and the result of a lot of background searching for intelligence and data. It’s incredibly wide-sweeping in its embrace of the numbers of eligible geographic locations and their representative countries. He looks problems squarely in the face then suggests possible remediations and on the face of it everything sounds hopeful and potentially workable. If we kind of blank out human nature and our propensity to screw just about everything up.

As I say, the incredibly wide sweep, the all-encompassing nature of the treatise is amazing, as is the inclusion of all those countries. China in and of itself is a powerhouse, now just emerging, and the same for India. Somehow, in view of all the enmity long existng and still very much in evidence beween those two nuclear powers, India and Pakistan leaves me just a little unconvinced that they would agree to merge into a larger whole that seeks to promote global well-being; not on the face of it, of course, since who wouldn’t want that? but on a more intimate country-to-country level, (their anger over ownership of Kashmir for one) and wouldn’t I love to be abused of my doubts?

It is an amazing, far-ranging and inclusive, scholarly treatise. I’ve got to go back and re-read it. I plan to.

Iran sticks out like a sore thumb in the equation of dialogue and reason at present, although that’s always subject to change, and one can only fervently hope so.

I’m not too sure about the twinning of Japan and Korea, let alone Japan, Korea and China. Much as I adore Japan and the good nature of its people domestically, their dreadful past of invasion and subjugation of both Korea and China ensures that those other two countries will have a long way to go before they ever forgive Japan its inhumane transgressions toward them.

There’s an answer to everything in that treatise, along with a healthy dose of reasonableness. It makes an appealing and compelling case for an Asian union.

As for my impression respecting the portability of democracy to Arab or Muslim countries and his pointing out Indonesia and India as examples of success, I’d have to point out in turn that you have to consider the general (political/social) climate of the country itself with respect to its readiness to embrace and to accept the concept of democracy. That clmate doesn’t appear all that open in much of the Middle East, and I’d love to be proven wrong there, too, and the future may just show us the way.

Oh, and that North American union you refer briefly to, you’re right, it is unofficial. It’s rather more than that; it’s been described as being conducted by stealth. And there’s a troubling elephant in that particular room. Many Canadians would be aversely suspicious to such a venture. Because of our long experience living beside the U.S. we know we are considered as a sometimes-troublesome little brother who has to be kept in our place. We do owe much of our current economic status to our contiguous borders; the U.S. is our largest trading partner; no surprise there. We also lean heavily on the U.S. for a sense of ‘protection’ from outside sources whose intents may be inimical to our well being.
We are, however, loathe to make ourselves less able by virtue of lost autonomy to pursue our own direction, to protect our natural resources from predation by an energy-hungry giant. Ours is a sometimes-troubling relationship, and the same could most certainly be said for Mexico. But that’s another story altogether.

IC,

Interesting links! I have a few comments : The idea of an Asian union is very far fetched! Three countries will SURELY oppose the idea Iran , Israel and China! Why ? Iran will never accept to shake hands with israel anytime soon, Israel will never accept to shake hands with Hamas or Iran anytime soon, on the other hand, its not in israel’s interest to be part of such a union at this point simply because trying to stand in israel’s place : It’s one of the most technologically developped countries in the region ( Okay, the arabian countries are much more developped and thousands of times richer( Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Saudi Arabia…but these countries won’t oppose a plan where they might be LEADERS), israel is a rich country who enjoys a liberal economy. On the other hand, israel wants to be a Jewish State, it doesn’t want any to accept any right of return, in short, at this point, israel doesn’t want anything other than ” Security Cooperation” with any arab country around it, it even wants to place itself in the European Union in order to get labeled as a western country once and for all( that’s why i said that it’s the middle east’s Switzerland, maybe not wealth wise, but culture-wise). imagine one day we propose to israel to join this Asian Union,to give freedom of movement and residence to everyone and to have a Free Market with china… The result is CATASTROPHIC for israel, GREAT for me… why catastrophic ? Well it’s easy! In less than two days, israel will loose it’s jewish caracter, it’s economy will collapse due to some very logical issues : You can’t compete with China, the arab world’s technology is much cheaper than the israeli one, arab states are more interesting than israel ( They have oil, gaz and a huge work force)…so israel is surely not going to accept to be part of this asian union…Now China…in one word : LIBERAL Capitalism/ Communism….oh..North korea

That’s why i think that in order to go towards a union , we have to start by Mini unions! Union of Far East asian countries, Union of Arab countries…. then maybe one day, we will be able to sum up all the unions together…but meanwhile, what we should work for is a UNION of countries that have things in common… and i surely don’t want to join forces with Iran at the moment…not for theological or Nuclear reasons but for ideological reasons

Why did i say that the result of the union is going to be GREAT for me ?

It’s because i will have freedom of movement, i will be able to live wherever i please, something that is VERY impossible at this moment! it’s not the idea that this union is Catastropic for israel that is GREAT for me… no, it’s just the idea of gaining the freedom i almost never had! but i want this to be clear : I wish that everyone will live in peace and harmony and prosperity without having to see the falling of any nation and that’s why i prefer not to talk about a union that includes israel as a starting point…BUT this doesnt mean that israel can’t be a friend! But let’s be realistic…Israelis, would you vote for such a Union?

My biggest problem with doing anything on the EU model is that the EU model is as yet unproven –I’m not sure that in 25 or 50 years the EU will still be the EU. It is still a very young union and riddled with problems (as any young union is likely to be). Having lived in Germany for extended periods of time over the last 10 years one of the things I’ve noted is the slow but steady increase in nationalism that is occurring there –a reaction I think to the sense of being subsumed, as well, of course, to other factors such as economic uncertainty. Certainly the trend toward nationalism is strongest in the eastern provinces of Germany but when I was there last two years ago in the very western part (border of Switzerland) my eyebrows were continually raising at comments dropped. And we are starting to see some nationalistic protectionism at the economic level as well. For instance, a number of EU member countries over the past couple of years have been erecting barriers to cross-border mergers and acquisitions, possibly in violation of their Single
Market commitments. Before I’d be willing to jump toward an EU-type bandwagon, I’d want to make sure that the wheels don’t fall off shortly after I do.

Jacob,
I prefer not to talk in sectarian terms , as far as I am concerned there is no such thing as alawite hierarchy, there is a regime that have hijacked the power and which enforce its reign of dictatorship through intimidation and arbitrary arrests to any one who opposes its policies ,I would like to see a process in which we can preserve the political system i.e the state and change the regime i.e the ruling party in order to have a plural and representative hierarchy ,we don’t want to undermine the state ,what we want to do is revitalize the institutions so that they can play an effective role in determining strategies that better serve Syria’s national interest
Regarding the fear of religious parties taking control, it is not likely that this would happen for so many reasons, Syrian society is different from other societies in the region, our constitution and laws are secular and religious parties don’t have the presence nor the capability to gain much say in the political scene in Syria.

“Syrian society is different from other societies in the region, our constitution and laws are secular and religious parties don’t have the presence nor the capability to gain much say in the political scene in Syria.”

Really? Wow, I had no idea. One thing I can definitely say is that I am learning so much about my neighbors and they are really important things to know! I don’t know why but I always assumed that religion played a very strong role in Syria, much as it does in Egypt and in Jordan. Can you tell us more about the role religion does play Yaser? I find this whole thread really fascinating.

Yaser, I agree with Yaeli. I am learning so much about Syria. I’d like to hear more about the hopes and dreams of the ordinary Syrians and the day to day life in Syria.
Rita, I don’t understand why we deposed Saddam and initiated military action in Iraq. I doubted our government’s explanation from the beginning. That said, I will say that an Iraqi that I know of here in Texas (I worked with his American wife for a short time) said that his own father had been murdered by Saddam and left on the family’s doorstep. Before his murder, the father had sent his son to study in Germany with the instructions “try not to ever return.” Saddam is accused of murdering thousands and thousands of people, and for that reason, he should have been stopped by someone. I feel that the US must try now to restore calm and order. It would be worse to leave the country in total turmoil. Just my opinion.

certainly religion plays a major role in the lives of many Syrians ,Moslems as well as Christians , I know a group of Christian friends who are very devoted to their faith I learned so much about Christianity from them, and once I attended a mass ceremony they invited me to, it was marvelous,
On the political front though, Syrian law doesn’t allow parties based on religious affiliation, all parties should be open for every one, and political programs are founded on the basis of national agendas not according to religion.

Ramzi S.: I’m left a little unclear about some of your assertions. Ramzi, I’m uncertain, even loath to enquire, because I’ve hurt your feelings before, but decided, after all, to forge ahead. Please don’t take offence.

You say that “the arabian countries are much more developed and thousands of times richer”…Wot?! Developed in which particular way…your logic escapes me. It took an Anglo-French-Arab consortium in a self-interested conjunction of greed away back when to develop oil extraction in oil-and gas-rich Middle East; this was no initiative by an enterprising Arab state. Thousands of times richer, yes indeed, and how for heavens sake is that any help in enriching the lives of ordinary Arabs?

Back to basics here: Israel is a rich country not because of any natural resources of a geological, geographic nature, but because of her people, living in an open atmosphere conducive to encouraging entrepreneurial ingenuity, determination and resourcefulness.

The fact that the Arab world has natural resources such as oil, gas and a huge work force makes them more “interesting?”. These are non-renewable resources; populations are renewable resources. The Arab economy has to be diversified, directed toward a good many other ventures than merely extraction of natural resources. At the present time, other than such resources there is tourism, where the region can bask in its glorious history of achievement in the arts, sciences, medicine, architecture, music, poetry, literature, philosophy and ancient artifacts.

But that is living in the past, not the present. Yesterday’s achievements were monumental in nature, today’s are pathetic. Even a country like Lebanon with so many intelligent, capable people is hamstrung by the inability of its population to endure one another because of religious strife.
Until such very basic issues are successfully solved there is no real moving forward toward a successful union.

If the entire region was able to live together in respectful harmony and peace, and that includes Israel with its rights of existence guaranteed by a lifting of religious enmity, there would likely no longer remain any real reason for Israel to be mostly Jewish. Other than the inescapable fact of history and human nature. Those two ingredients spell a dead end. The Arab world needn’t worry that it’s likely to face obliteration any time soon. The Jewish world has, in the recent past, and is still facing the very possibility of a repeat.

Lynne: I hear you loud and clear. Pandora’s box has been opened, but it’s doubtful, given missed opportunities post-invasion that the U.S. can stem the tide it has inadvertenly unleashed. Just my opinion.

Yasser; But that is the reality on the ground, that there is a hereditary alawite minority controlling the majority-Sunni population. Iraq’s legal system and its constitution was secular in nature too, was it not? And under Saddam Hussein it was a Sunni branch that controlled the majority Shia.

Half there, but not quite yet, especially when you cannot reconcile “free elections” with freedom to select candidates whose presence gives the people reason to believe their interests and those of their country will finally be first and foremost, not that of a petty dictator posing as a legitimate leader of a country.

I’m being unfair. you’ve pointed out previously that there’s a long road to haul and the steps to be taken must be tiny ones at first before giant ones can be attempted. I apologize. just looking at things as they are at present.

Rita,

israel isn’t that perfect nation either, ask the israelis themselves, maybe you are one yourself! Racism is very strong between everyone inside israel: Tsfaradim/ashkenazim, Arabs/jews , Blacks/whites, Morrocans/the others… Russians/Europeans , Europeans/americans… Iraqis….. !

Most of The Richest people hold double nationalities from rich countries ( USA , Canada, France, Germany, Spain…) and they have nothing in common with their fellow israelis who come from Africa…etc etc… if israel is more or less rich nowadays, it’s thanks to the USA… remove the american aid, israel will collapse! It’s people are not contributing much to it’s wealth! Who told me this ? A guy called Eran Broitman and who is a social researcher at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. He also told me that their is a fear that the American policies will change! Not only the american policies, but the United Nations ones! There is talk on the street about the elimination of the VETO power! How many problematic resolutions for israel got blocked by the USA in the last 5 years ? Imagine this stops one day, and eventually it will! not mentionning that the USA will not be the Eternal world’s super power,there is a theory that says that every 30 years more or less, the world changes drastically! 60 years ago, it was the second world war that changed the world! 30 years ago, it was the cold war…

My suggestion is that for israel to keep existing the way it wants to, it has to make peace with all it’s neighbours : The Palestinians, Syria, Lebanon, iran, the gulf states…

If i say that the gulf states are more developped than israel, it’s because its simply true! Try the Entry : Dubai or Abu Dhabi on google… They are technologically thousands of times more developped than the most developped israeli city! ( regardless of the origines of this developpement)!they are Way more ressourceful , way more wealthy $$$$$$$! and they really don’t need any help from the USA, if one day this American Help stops for a reason or another, they will even get richer! (Ask Dick Cheney…) Islamism is not that scary in these countries because almost everybody is opposed to islamist radicals and the Local powers will never let such threats exist, they really wouldn’t mind to execute any Hard liner, that’s what makes them socially less developped than israel! But in our capitalistic world, the civil society isn’t as important as those who control the business..so nobody cares about how many opponents they eliminate as long as they keep providing their services!

It irritates me when i hear those who keep saying ” our nation is perfect,all the others are bad” this happens both in israel and in the arab world! it’s called ethnocentrism! We should stop closing our eyes! all our nations are EXPIRED and need major changes! That’s why i have hope for the future, it’s CLEAR that the future holds a lot of surprises for everyone…. Good for some and bad for others … And the USA is placing itself among the ones who should expect bad ones! ( That’s where G W bush is to blame…)

Hi Ramzi;
Find myself agreeing with a whole lot of your assertions; not all, but we’re in the same ball park overall. No, Israel is not perfect for within the democratic framework there are corrupt and immoral politicians and they besmirch the country’s ethical status, a dreadful pity. I can hardly credit the utter incomprehensibility of the Israel political scene, it must make ordinary Israelis absolutely cringe in despair.
I agree the horrible human condition of discrimination is rife everywhere, in Israel as well. As human beings we just don’t seem to be able to get ourselves and our priorities in good order. It somehow makes us feel better to belittle others and that’s incredibly nasty, unworthy.

It’s true that people of different origins living together in a more universally tolerant environment though, find common cause with one another irrespective of religion, ethnic backgrounds, traditions. There are other, meaningful values that they agree upon.

And, sad to say, even if we expunge discrimination on the basis of the most obvious detractants like religion and ethnic origin, there is always another kind that disparages others without wealth or the benefit of a higher education…it goes on and on.
Discrimination, sometimes used as a less stinging metaphor for racism, though, isn’t racism and there are times when intelligent discrimination is a good thing. Racism, never. It’s anti-intelligent, since in fact there’s one and only one race of humans on this earth.

About the resolutions within the UN, though, we’re not in agreement. For one thing, there are resolutions brought by a bloc of 22 Arab nations year after weary year, aided and abetted by supporters which condemn Israel unfairly and which should never see the light of day as they are written. They are in the nature of vexatious, vengeful, untruthful vendettas.

Ramzi, what do you actually equate technological development with? Do you mean a high state of advanced technical achievement resulting in a society which enjoys a high degree of economic success which all the population shares in through civil infrastructure?

As for Israel having to be prepared to make peace with all its neighbours; isn’t that the name of the game? For everyone? Do you really feel that Israel, that lonely little sliver of a country smack-dab in the centre of a larger Arab community of countries goes out of its way to resist peace overtures and the potential of living in harmony with its neighbours?

Rita, I agree that discrimination exists everywhere, Israel included, but in Israel, I will say that people from diverse religions may worship as they please without fear of harm. Many in Israel are making very forceful efforts to provide opportunities for minorities through education and other programs. Much remains to be done, just as is the case in the US. As a teacher in the US, I spend most of my time and energy on the low-achieving students and those at-risk for failure.
Israel’s leaders: I like Livni and believe that she has a good heart and sense. The rest of the political leaders seem a hopeless, worthless lot.
The Middle East will be facing the same challenges as the rest of the world with global warming. New industries, new strategies will be needed in the ME as well as in the US and the rest of the world. I hope that the entire ME will be able to promote industries which will offer employment for the citizens and will at the same time conserve energy and reduce damage to the environment.
I hope that the peace process will move forward. It will benefit the entire region.

IC wrote:” I just started an Israeli website in support of an Asian Union a week ago. It’s in Hebrew and still very basic, so I’ll spare you the link at this point. It doesn’t advocate a Middle Eastern or Arab union, but a continental, cross-Asian union, at least as a (foreseeable or not) future goal. The concept of continental unions and an eventual world government has been a lifelong passion for me.”

This is a fantastic idea IC !! The latest is the exciting trade co-op with INDIA !

By Ira Duggal Monday, December 4, 2006 (Mumbai):
India and Israel have warmed to each other and now they’re thinking of a Free Trade Agreement to push trade between the two countries to $5 billion by 2008.A joint study group has recommended a Preferential Trade Agreement between the two sides to start with. However, Israel said that it is keen to take it a step further and work towards an FTA.
“We are actively engaged in reviewing the idea of a Free Trade Agreement. If a FTA is signed, it will be a huge catalyst as far as business relations between the two countries are concerned,” said HE Eliyahu Yishai Deputy Prime Minister, Israel.Some of the key industries identified for co-operation include defence, high-end information technology, infrastructure and also agriculture and agro technologies.The two areas that have helped Israel in agricultural sector, which has among the highest yields in the world.”They have good technology to actually make fresh products. In agriculture, we have been lacking and the reason for that is that we have not employed high end technologies and that is because private people have not entered the market,” said Piruz Khambatta, CMD, Rasna Pvt Ltd.
“I know for sure that a lot of Israeli companies are talking to Indian companies for this sort of technical tie-up,” added Khambatta.

http://www.ndtvprofit.com/homepage/storybu…=n&id=35089

and
PARUL CHANDRA ; IN TEL AVIV Posted online: Sunday, January 08, 2006 at 0000 hours IST
Given the warmth and interest India and the Indian culture evokes among Israelis, the Indian embassy in Tel Aviv decided to organise a two-week long festival of Indian films. The festival, which began on January 5, will be on till January 18. Indian ambassador to Israel,Arun Kumar Singh, says, “We decided to organise such a festival as there is a lot of interest in Indian culture here.” Care has been taken to bring to the Israeli audience not only Bollywood movies, but those from regional cinema as well. And the festival is the first of its kind at least where Indian movies are concerned. An article in one of Israel’s leading newspapers, The
Jerusalem Post, notes, “India may have the largest film industry in the world but it’s rare that Indian films are shown here in Israel.”With growing Indo-Israeli ties, the time is opportune to expose Israelis to Indian movies.
http://www.financialexpress.com/fe_full_st…ntent_id=113842

So,with India being the largest democracy in the World with 1 billion pop. and a growing middle class (est 300 million)… that’s quite a market for Israeli hitech/agrotech/diamonds and other products

I just luv India!

Well well,

To be honest Rita, From where i am standing, israel is being very tough: Syria offered talks MANY TIMES…israel refused with what i call ” non-arguments” ..such as ” we have no partners..” or such as ” syria supports Terror”… well talk to syria, and proove that it doesnt want peace!

The gulf states are trying to reach to israel, but the israeli government is not interested! the israeli media keeps talking about this ..

Abbas is struggling for his own political survival because israeli promises are almost NEVER accomplished!( Removing roadblocks for example ?). Everyone can use security as a pretext… but the problem is that this can’t be an eternal argument! It’s not that Valid! Israel is acting as if everyone around it wants it to disappear, and this seems to be the main idea inside israel! It’s not because you feel threatned that you really are! As i always said… To make war is easier than to make peace… The only way to stop war is to talk and not to REFUSE to talk…it would be honest that you recognize that the current israeli Knesset wants everything BUT peace! Likud is inside it ( the Knesset), Peres ( the labourite) is calling for the Creation of more and more settelments in the west bank, olmert is making everything possible in order not to grant anything to Abbas ( NB: On haaretz, there was an article called ” as long as it’s just talking” )…Lieberman is inside the Government, and his stance is CLEAR, ” Transfer them” . The arab states around Israel as well as their populations understood that ISRAEL is here to stay! If they don’t recognize it, it’s simply because israel doesnt recognize them either, most of the times, it’s OVER the law and it acts as arrogant as the USA acts sometimes in the region! Let’s call a Problem a Problem and not turn around it so as not to hurt each other! TRY TALKING, the only one who really tried was Rabin , he got killed for it ( and had he been left alive, things would have been different today..i’m sure) ! why is everyone able to FORCE arab states to do things while nobody is able to ADVICE israel to do anything? Get rid of the stereotypes…the ” they hate us” …” they want to kill us” ..” they want us to disappear” …We are not IRAN! We are in a struggle with Iran too! We don’t want you to disappear! Even Hamas understood this and they are SLOWLY changing their stance!it might take a while for them to declare it officially…but they are now asking for a ” 1967 borders palestinian state…” just like me by the way…

Look : Yaeli created ” Good neighbours” and invited people from all the region to join, Till now, nobody talked about the erradication of Israel, on the contrary! You can say that the people have been chosen accordingly…BUT no… we come from very different countries, and we all extend a hand! I , as an arab, Palestinian, i can use the same arguments and i have proof : Just read the TALKBACKS under ALL of the articles in all the israeli online news papers! It’s really disgustingly racist MOST of the times! ” arabs are dogs…animals…” ” Pigs…” even when the news is about a good thing for israel..someone has to say ” it’s a lie, they want to kill us..THE PIGS…”…. ” Palestinians don’t exist” ” they are the real settlers”… and what comes back VERY VERY VERY VERY often is ” They ( anybody criticizing israel or any arab) are anti-semites…. ” … If you really expect me Arab , Palestinian, to be more ISRAELI than israelis themselves and accept all what israel and the USA want me to accept , be sure that it will never happen! The only way out of this is that WE ALL accept each other and we have to make a lot of concessions and nobody holds the monopoly to decide what a concession is! … Let’s TALK for god’s sake! as Rabin once said ” Talking for 10 years while accomplishing nothing is better than shooting at each other for 10 minutes”!

as for your question about technology….i’m only talking about ECONOMICAL issues and not about social issues! i’m talking about commercial technology not about social technology… but is till don’t agree with you on this point, the Citizens of these gulf states live real great Lives! They are FREE, RICH, they don’t pay a lot ot taxes, the main services are FREE for citizens! Look at Kuwait for example : citizens don’t pay for gas, they don’t pay for electricity and sometimes, they don’t pay for the phone! my brother lived there for 2 years, the wealth of the country is distributed very very well! In Abu Dhabi and Dubai, people are very westernized too…i wonder how you decided that these people don’t live well! Isn’t this a Stereotype ? I really think that you have to visit these countries! All of you people! i’m sure that you all hold Foreign passports ( Americans, canadians, europeans…) i really suggest that you visit these places, you will change your mind! don’t give in to Media Manipulation! Some of you are journalists, some others are communication experts, we all know how BAD the media can be! how Manipulating it can get!

Ramzi, I am learning more about the diverse countries in the ME everyday, especially through this blog and others. In regard to the talkbacks in some of the newspapers, I don’t comment there anymore because the tone and the messages that are posted there are too fanatical. I don’t like any forum that unfairly criticizes any group of people. What you are seeing when you read those talkbacks, are the extreme views of people–most of them aren’t even from Israel. I cannot agree with their mean-spirited comments or perspective. But, you know, perspectives can change as people get better information, and that is the value of Good Neighbors.
You know, I myself have questioned this stance taken by governments when they say “We don’t talk to this group or that because they are terrorists or extremists”. It would be better to hold open talks with other neutral persons included. When I was a social worker, there is one important fact that I learned though: Watch what people actually DO, not what they SAY. So even though talks may be held between opposing sides (any opposing sides), the actions of those groups needs to be watched as well.
I am frustrated with the Israeli settlers who want to hold onto their land, when asked by their government to give it up for the good of all. I understand how terrible they may feel when they have financial and emotional investment in that land. I do. I understand, but I think that we have to look past our own more narrow interests for the good of all. And the same can be said for any group who works against the overall good of all in the region. I’d like to see everyone everywhere realize that we are truly just one people, though we may have different ideas, religions, backgrounds.
The ME and the rest of the world is so very depend on gas and oil right now, but even a fifth grade textbook will tell us that source is nonrenewable and is coming to an end of availability. It is human nature to refuse to accept scarcity until it is all gone, but we had better be looking to the future.
Ramzi, you are so right to point out the rich history and accomplishments in the ME, in absolutely every country! There is so much physical beauty in the environment. Tourism, education, and trade are industries that could thrive in the ME, once the strife and conflict have been resolved.

Ramzi, I’d like to response to some of the points you raised.
The Israeli government treats Assad’s words with a lot of skepticism.
Syria has actively helped the Hezbolla in the recent war so this skepticism is in place, as far as I see.
Also, every time there is information about some beginning of negotiations, that information is quickly denied by the the Syrian government.
This leads to the conclusion that Syria is only willing to sound to the outside world as it is willing to talk about peace, (so it would not be considered as a terror-supporting country) but never actually do anything about it.
Israel asked Assad for a simple public gesture with no political consequence – Send the bones of Eli Cohen (an Israeli spy that was caught and hung in Syria decades ago) to Israel.
The request was left unanswered, so was the invitation to Assad to come and visit Jerusalem.
I think that a legitimate precondition for peace talks would be that the other side would stop promoting the irradiation of the other side. And by that I do mean for the Hammas’s summer camps for would-be suicide bombers.

Kuwait, Dubai, and the other emirayat are rich countries. No one could deny that. Do you think they were that rich without the oil? or even without the rest of the world buying oil from them?
I’m not saying there’s something wrong with that, but this is exactly an example of countries who chose to cooperate with the western world in order to thrive.

Omeran, it does seem that Assad says all kind of things and so what is to be believed? Perhaps Yaser can give us more insight on this matter.
Those countries that are now rich in oil must prepare for the future when the oil stops flowing—diversifying industries and economic plans for that time. The US and the rest of the world will have serious adjustments to make if there are not plans carefully made for the future.

Lynne – My point is that we can only believe words which are backed up by some noticeable actions.
When Assad speaks with two opposite voices – one that threatens to ‘take the Golan heights by force’ and one that sounds like he’s willing for negotiations, and that the only the first voice is the one backed up by actions (again, by supporting the Hezbolla) – there is little sense in assuming that there’s some real intent behind the second voice.

One last note, about talk-backs in Israeli news sites, especially ynet/ynetnews, and even more in political matters.
There’s a distinct pattern in which one non-conformist or even extreme left-winged or pro-arab talk-back is followed by a stream of extreme right-winged and/or racist replies, coming exactly from the right kind of hot-tempered sheeple that would react this way.
Often there’s a feeling that the first comment was written just to incite the rest of them.
Right-minded people (I’m using a lot of ‘lefts’ and ‘rights’ here, I know) are so disgusted by these replies that they won’t even bother in lowering themselves into this kind of “discussion”.
I guess the news sites don’t really mind because more talk-backs->more banners shown->more money.

(Oh, and I don’t have any foreign passport. Do you think my Persian roots can get me an Iranian passport?)

Omeran, yes, I feel the same way about the talkbacks. Best to ignore them completely. And, I do agree about words vs. actions (see my comment about five upwards).

Lynne, thank you for sharing some of your experience.
Good will is evident within the community, part of Yiddishkeit; it is demanded of Jews that they extend themselves toward inclusiveness. It’s been my experience that Jews make the effort. We don’t tend to be a violent people, in any event. If that’s a stereotype, so be it.
There are always exceptions (Meir Kahane for one), yet one must also consider the source’s antecedents.
Tsipi Livni is impressive, she seems like an honest, earnest exception to the disappointing political presence currently on he scene. I would trust her.

I had an unexpected and entirely random telephone call today from Israel. Asking for donors to replace trees burned down by rocket attacks during the IDF-Hezbollah war. Made me feel very warm and comforted that I would be invited to help in such a way.

Ramzi, hello!
Seems to me you’re equating wealth with progress, investing wealth with an undeserved status of respect. Think about it, the Gulf States and Emirates are awash in oil wealth that permits them to live well in a material way. What happens when that oil disappears? Willthey be prepared, through the education of their young people to launch into other economic spheres requiring more than the collection of oil revenues to continue prospering?

Wealth in and of itself is not all that deserving of respect. With all the riches that the Gulf States rake in why aren’t they investing some of it in places like Egypt whose vast population could use a little bit of a helping hand? Charity begins at home; it doesn’t translate to wealthy young men living high on the hog in the U.S. and Europe on more oil money than they can dispense of handily…

Ramzi, secret talks between Israel and Syria have been ongoing for what, two years? They’d almost hammered out an agreement whereby the Golan would be returned in exchange for Syria allowing Israel access to the lands beneath – for a two-year period whereby Syria could prove it would not launch attacks against Israel from the heights. Tzivi Lipni was involved, I’m sure. The current U.S. administration nixed it as ‘doing business with the enemy’ and Israel appears to have withdrawn.

Syria means Israel no ill? give me a break. Who helps to fund Hamas and Hezbollah?

Roadblocks? Every time they’re opened there’s yet another deadly incursion, so they’re closed down again. You’re right there; in the ME war is easier to wage than peace. Where are all the peace partners? you point at israel as being a detriment to the peace process, yet are all those Kassam bombings imagined? Suicide killings imagined?

You are right on one major item. No one is really communicating with the other side. They may be communicating in an abstract way, but they’re not communicating in a real and present way. They don’t actually hear one another. Even if they speak the same language, it’s not the same language at all. Everything comes out garbled, from one side to the other.

Ramzi, you don’t think Israel need fear any of her neighbours’ intent toward her? Ramzi, you bear no real ill will against Israel, you’re just sick and tired of all the prevarications, the finger-pointing, the lack of progress. You likely reflect the mind-set in tha particular instance of most of the Palestinian population. But Ramzi, your perceptions are also very one-sided. You are utterly fed up, and you blame israel entirely. Really think that’s fair?
Ramzi – Shalom

Ramzi,

Not to flog a dead horse, but your mention of disparaging comments against Arabs and Palestinians in ‘talk-backs’ brings to mind the descriptions of Jews in official Arab news sites, along with the textbooks given to children to read that vilify Jews and describe them in the same disgusting terms as you mentioned bigoted writers describing Arabs. They’are all of a piece, but one represents the disgorging of hate by individuals with a screw loose, the other officially-sanctioned and/or upfront news services subscribing to and disseminating race hatred.

Ramzi, when you speak of journalists and ‘communication experts’ as you did, of whom do you speak with respect to responses at this site? Not me, I would hope. I’m a 70-year-old housewife/grandmother; does that make me somewhat less threatening?

If we were indeed communication experts or expert at communicating do you think we might offer our services to those who need it most, the movers and shakers of ME governments?

Rita,

to me, a Teacher is a Communication expert for example..don’t take my words literarly, but the idea is that we all know what the MEDIA is! I mean, i hope that we all know what the media is!

As for the hate you are talking about in textbooks, i don’t happen to agree that much! In palestinian textbooks, there is no “Israel” proper, eventhough it’s mentionned, it’s not the MAIN thing that you find, but in Israeli textbooks they, nobody teaches about us, other than ” the enemy” ( believe me i know what i am talking about, i recently met a few israeli teachers over here…) Don’t you remember what happened a few months ago when Tamir tried to Include the 1967 lines to textbooks?

Rita, i have a feeling that you read things at the PA watch group, and if you don’t, you probably get the “News” indirectly! …you might think that PA watch are wonderful and that they translate things the way they should, let me give you a scoop , the three times i entered their website and watched their videos with the Translations they offered, i laughed! A speech of Arafat where he talked about Rabin ,Children and peace ( in arabic ) was twisted to ” Children , Martyrs and war” in the translation! It’s easy to say ” Textbooks say this” “Official Tv says that”, but you don’t understand arabic you are only offered some wierd failed attempts of translation ( interpretation)! Even if some wierd people say wierd stuff on Official TV, you have to know that the Palestine TV is almost NEVER watched, NEVER! it’s very unpopular and quite boring! I read israeli newspapers, I understand hebrew,i read hebrew a little, i watch israeli TV quite often and listen to israeli Radio, and believe me, there is a lot of degrading stuff there when it comes to my people, yet , i don’t assume that this is the official position of the israeli people! It’s very often the STANCE of the government ( again, i have to cite The Honourable Mr. Lieberman) , or the Honourable Mr. Netanyahu (Whom i directly and openly blame for what hamas became nowadays) or the “Neverchanging” Mr Peres who was once a convinced laborite and who suddenly became a likudnik affiliated with Kadima! … Believe me, no side is more Noble than the other, we have sick people on both sides, ,and i won’t let them talk in my name and i surely won’t listen to them ( even if they claim to offer NEWS…)!

You will tell me ” Nobody wants to recognize israel” ….. I will reply with… ” SO WHAT? is this going to change anything? Is israel recognizing anybody in the region ? ” and we will discuss this for YEARS and probably we will end up by shooting each other! while honestly, recognition is not our main problem! Not recognizing israel or not recognizing Palestine is called IGNORANCE! It’s like the person who wakes up every morning and says ” The sun doesn’t exist, i don’t recognize it” … this won’t change THE FACT , the scientific FACT that the sun is there! Sometimes, i don’t understand why we( all of us in the middle east) act this way! You know how many YEARS we have been stagnating around the word ” Recognition” ? FOR WHAT? !!! If you really want to know what i really think, listen to this : At this moment, if i happen to meet a Leader, whether israeli or Palestinian, i will have Two words for him/her : ” Grow up” ! That’s how much respect i owe them…i can’t blame their populations who are doing the natural human thing of ” trusting” their leaders!

As for you being ” Less Threatening” , did i ever suggest that you were threatning in the first place ?

Ramzi –
About textbooks – I don’t think you’ll find an Israeli textbook that teaches 8 graders that Palestinians should be driven out of Israel.
On Palestinian textbooks you’ll easily what I can’t describe otherwise than a ‘war-mongering brainwash’.
The textbooks and TV are in total control of the PA, so it’s perfectly legitimate to view it as the government’s view (and not the current government in particular).
The subject of ‘where the line passes’ is much less acute to me than the education toward peace. And I can recall several books from our literature matriculation exam which revolved around co-existence between Israel and Palestinians.
My Arabic is far from perfect, but having heard Arafat incite audience of thousands to march an army of so-called martyrs to Jerusalem will not escape my memory soon.
“Is Israel recognizing anybody in the region?”
Is there any country in the region Israel doesn’t recognize?
Is there any other country in the region that has given the Palestinians in its region an autonomy?

oh …Omeran, do you have Proof that palestinian textbooks Teach that israelis be driven out of israel ? IF YES, ples enlighten me!

Yes, israel does not recognize the countries around it other than egypt and jordan, when you enter decide that your warplanes can fly over countries at NO PRICE, you don’t recognize the independance of these countries..and don’t tell me “SECURITY”…even SECURITY doesnt allow anyone to violate non national spaces!

As for ” Martyrs to jerusalem” … It’s a national cause, and all through human history, people dying for their Causes has been seen as the most noble thing to do! I don’t agree with the terrorist who kills innocents and who blows up a bus or throws a tank shell on a car just because he was scared…I OPPOSE DEATH ( premature death that is) but you have to admit that All the soldiers dying everywhere are MARTYRS! and that’s what Arafat meant, this is not a terrorist statement, it’s not inciting! It’s just REALITY! Most of the israelis are the Soldiers of their Cause, and most Palestinians are the soldiers of their cause! ( Not the army Soldiers, the Militant soldiers)…but to cut it short, IN What do you find this statement Inciting ? Is it because he Said Jerusalem? or because he said Martyrs? To us and to the international community, east jerusalem is an occupied territory, an occupied territory gets liberated, whether by war or by peace ( i presonally prefer peace)… So i just don’t understand why the moment you say ” Arafat” something negative has to follow! ( Keep in mind that Arafat became the enemy just when Sharon took power….and Sharon was far away from holding the Supreme truth… So just stop it with this diabolization thing! Remember that ARAFAT extended a Hand to Rabin , To Netanyahu, to Barak…. and remember that the only ones who called Arafat a terrorist were Israel and THE USA( once bush got elected)…nobody else boycotted him!…And to tell you everything, the more i hear critics about Arafat, the more i respect him! eventhough i didn’t like the guy at all when he was alive ( not for Foreign policy reasons, for local ones…)

typo : ples = please

(this reply is probably going to be moderated, because it contains links, but I don’t really care)

As for textbooks –
I was referring to this text, although you might regard it as nonobjective.
Here are a few relatively neutral recent news:
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewPolitics.asp?Page=/Politics/archive/200702/POL20070209a.html
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=139&x_article=828
Here’s a nice scan of the description of Palestine from a relatively new book, In a simple language that even I can read. It really is nice to know that Jerusalem is the official capital of Palestine, which includes also Haifa and Yaffo, which have always been a part of Israel.
I know there are many studies around Palestinians textbooks. I can’t tell the objectivity of any of them.
What do you mean by ‘warplanes can fly over countries with no price’?
What about rockets coming from both Gaza and Lebanon?

Regarding Martyrs – It horrifies me to see people being taught to give their life for a cause. This is basically lowering the value of human life. Naturally, When you treat your own people’s life as something to be taken lightly, you think even less about human lives in the other side.
Martyrs are being glorified and set as role models both in schools and outside it (And I am referring again to Hammas’s Summer camps), and then the term is redefined to include all people who die in Jihad. Then, you take it a step further and declare that suicide bombers are also Martyrs. By the time those kids are 18, taking their own life isn’t really their own choice anymore, so taking other lives is taken for granted.

Regarding Arafat – He was considered a terrorist long before Sharon was prime-minister. And the PLO was considered a terrorist organization, considered responsible for numerous bombing, murders and kidnappings, under the leadership of Arafat.
I cannot consider Arafat ‘extending his hand for peace’ as something other than an act of deceit and manipulation. According the all the sources I consider relevant, this was just the easier step to apply more pressure on Israel.

(just a notice to whom it may concern – my previous comment is awaiting moderation)

Ramzi,
I don’t think I’m familiar with the news site you mentioned. I use E.U., British, U.S., Canadian, Israeli sources of news gathering, primarily Canadian when I form my opinions. We’re all imbued with a certain amount of built-in bias, but we certainly can discriminate intelligently on the basis of everything we see and hear.

Martyrs! Soldiers are defenders, they are not martyrs. Unless you’re thinking “defenders-of-the-Faith”, a rather medieval concept = martyrs.

If you feel Arafat has been unfairly demonized, I would venture to say there are other opinions; he often spoke out of both sides of his mouth, seeming to say one thing reassuringly to an international audience and something completelydifferent to the ‘faithful’. So which expressed what he meant, and how was he to be trusted?
It was he who scuppered a peace agreement by pulling out at the very last moment, demanding ever more concessions. And when they were not forthcoming, he initiated the first intifada as a tool to force additional concessions. Violence always appears to trump honest dialogue in the ME. Why is that?

All I see and hear is denial. Denial of responsibility to deal honestly and in good faith. Denial of responsibility to curb violence against civilians because they represent the oppressors. Don’t you believe the ‘oppressors’ would gladly give up that glorious mantle for the victory of living in peace and security with neighbours committed to that same ideal? I do.

Stupid politicians aside, that is. Stupid as they are, they still want the same thing, and they can accidently stumble into a situation of peace. Unless they fall back on warwarwar.

Ramzi, an exchange of dialogue is worthless without honesty, a willingness to listen, learn, share and accept.

Exactly Rita! And you can be sure that i am learning, listening, and accepting ( the acceptable) and my honesty is not to be questioned, i have nothing to hide! When i talk, i talk out of DESIRE to make a point!

For so many years, everybody used to make points in our name, everybody used to decide for us ( whether it was Israel, The arabs, Hamas, Fateh) nobody ever cared enough to know what our real desire was! NOW , i am talking, i am a normal palestinian, and i have no reason not to be HONEST!

Defending Arafat : When we, palestinians, listened to him, it was through international media sources and never through local ones( since he never talked to local medias), so we used to hear what you used to hear! The only difference is that on your side, people decided that Arafat was not good and killed him politically! how ? Well ask Barak and clinton! The failiur of Camp David, I BET YOU that you don’t know anything about the details of this failiur! Not only Arafat didn’t accept, but the israeli offer was not acceptable to us! it was not negotiated, it was imposed and when you impose something,you must be willing to dicuss it or FACE the idea that the other side might not accept it! Israel DID NOT WANT TO ACCEPT ANY CHANGE ( but it’s not the only side in the conflict, and far away from being the sole decision-make ) You can’t blame someone for not accepting an offer, even if you think it’s the best offer ever! I really suggest that you READ again all what happened at camp david! and to remember barak’s words when he said that anyways, he didnt have the knesset’s support for such an agreement!..and your comments, as well as the comments of most of the people concerning this shows that you really never tried to understand why, you just heard that Arafat Refused and closed the door! HE DID NOT! ….as for the intifada “he started” i must remind you that arafat never started the Intifada, remember sharon’s digusting visit to the Jerusalem mosque along with 2000 ARMED soldiers ? What do you call this ? A Love message ? Sharon started the intifada, sharon was always at camp David too behind barak ( did this have an effect on the failiur ? ….)

As for The Denial to curb violence : do you honestly think that Arafat was able to curb the violence ? you seem to forget that Violence is not one sided… You know that the first thing sharon did was to destroy ALL the Palestinian police stations, he locked up Arafat, he destroyed us internationally (while isolating us along with his friend Bush…) , he humiliated our leadership ( all of it) , he decided that there was no partner on the other side and sent all the israeli army ( Reserve) to attack the westBank ( and i can tell you,we lived hell…And i will never allow anyone to say ” You deserved it…” ) , and then he had the guts to say ” Arafat, stop this violence or face the consequences” …Do you honestly think that Arafat had any executive power left? Do you really think that after all this,anyone had the desire to make favors to sharon ? I tell you what i think personally : NOT AT ALL! I still beleive that Israelis made the mistake of choosing him as their prime minister…just as we are always blamed for choosing hamas , israelis should be blamed for choosing sharon! ( and now i guess you are feeling what i feel when i am blamed for the choices of my people…)

as for ” Talking to the faithful” …. That’s another proof that shows that you know absolutely nothing about arafat … Arafat , and i respect him for that, never talked to the Faithful, he always talked to the Palestinians…

having said all this,

I think that we better talk about the future instead of look at our messed up past!

Well well Omeran ,

about your links, first of all i must say that the Israeli MFA is as objective as the Palestinian MFA! These two sources have one common interest : To sell policies internationally! Anyways…

It’s really important to note that israel considers the West Bank as israel too…Israeli textbooks don’t include the green line, and to us , East jerusalem is our Capital and our claim is as valid as your claim and the only way to harmonize both claims to this capital is to TALK seriously without any delay…! I don’t understand why you feel so Insulted when i say that JERUSALEM is my official capital ? You say it too! ( by the way, that’s about 70% of our conflict!) So i don’t see how you can ask us not to teach our children that jerusalem is their capital while you keep doing it!

As for Hillary clinton, it takes a 3 years old to understand that Hillary is far away from being a Balanced person when it comes to this conflict! So i don’t even want to read what she says simply because i know it too well! HER WEBSITE has a section called ” Israel and the middle east” … and inside it, EVERYTHING is about israel and her love for this country ( It’s her right) but its my right to say that having said this, her position shall not be taken into consideration since it has ZERO objectivity…. and i refuse it! She has ZERO BALANCE!…

as for the other links, they just quote things and present nothing “new” to what the others CLAIM…

Calling Jerusalem ” The capital” is not Incitement…And having said this, i defy you to find other things that incite people to be violent and to kill….. and i can tell you, i know the Palestinian educational system WAY TOO WELL… It needs loads of reforms but not for political reasons! For functional reasons that i totally oppose, and we are working on changing it …. when i say WE, i can tell you that i know WHO and WHAT i am talking about ….

As for Arafat, i won’t change your views on the man, i just have to ask you to respect my views, and to keep into consideration that i view sharon the same way you view Arafat…

Omeran: textbook inclusion is fairly well documented, but there is one hell of a lot of propoganda/anti-prop/anti-anti-propoganda sites on line confusing the issue, effectively denying and muddying the reality of their existence.

Oops, I thought when I wasn’t able to post comments several evenings back or so that I was deliberately shut out because my comments were considered to be too inflammatory or something. I suppose they can be viewed as such but I view all of this in the spirit of adding to a debate, giving one another alternative perspectives, and information derived from other sources, let alone those that arise from our individual points of views and experiences.

Shaheed-inspired education is being taught to children as a way of instilling pride in their religion. Children and young people are very vulnerable to this kind of manipulation; their romantic sense of self and affiliation is very readily led astray when impressed upon them by those they trust, those whom they hold in great esteem. It helps to ingrain within their consciousness the possibility that they too can aspire to reach such heights of immortal destiny…

Ramzi,
Fair enough, you should be able to speak in your own voice. You’re doing so rather admirably. Despite that I find fault at times with what you express, it’s your considered opinion, obviously.

And I agree, we spend entirely too much time and energy discussing the past, not the future. We cannot change the past, the present gives us the opportunity to change what might be altered int he best interests of all concerned; the future is our opportunity to demonstrate that we are sincere about living those changes to result in a final peace settlement.

But Ramzi, let me remind you that you are as guilty as anyone about visiting and re-visiting the past ad nauseum. It’s part of the function of argument or discussion to be sure, but there’s entirely too much denial.

East Jerusalem is the ‘hoped-for’ capital for Palestinians, it is not the de facto capital. A the present time east Jerusalem is part and parcel of greater Jerusalem, the capital, as the Israeli government sees it, of its own state, although this recognition is not shared by other national governments. It is still a matter of conjecture what will transpire, and remains a matter of primary agreement or lack of between the contestants.

Israel, for one thing cannot possibly give up the right to access of east Jerusalem. An access denied it under the Muslim Authority and during that long period of time when Jordan had full administration of the area.

The Camp David agreement was a negotiated one, one deemed at the time to respond to the needs and concerns of both Israel and the Palestinians. Through those negotiations Israel bargained away a lot of which it held dear and near, give up far more than it would have wanted to, because of its hope for peace between the two antagonists. It was Arafat who changed his mind, aiming for additional concessions.

There you go again; Ariel Sharon visited the Temple Mount, a revered symbol of Judaism. Arafat was waiting for just such an opportunity with which to cloak his demands for concessions as a response to ‘aggression’ on the part of Israel/Sharon by visiting the Temple Mount.

Palestinians have allowed a land-dispute disagreement to be transformed into a religious war. By so doing greater passions and determination to succeed is invoked simply by virtue of this expedient whereby the faithful will respond passionately to any perceived threats to their religion. A case in point can be readily seen where Muslim clerics invoke the name of Allah and encourage worshippers to riot when simple remedial archeological work is being undertaken to improve access to holy sites held in reverence by all the “Abrahamic” religions.

as for the intifada “he started” i must remind you that arafat never started the Intifada, remember sharon’s digusting visit to the Jerusalem mosque along with 2000 ARMED soldiers ? What do you call this ? A Love message ? Sharon started the intifada, sharon was always at camp David too behind barak ( did this have an effect on the failiur ? ….)

Do you claim that the pictures taken from the books are forgery?
You say that Israel is never mentioned in PA textbooks. I say that’s part of the problem –
If Yaffo and Haifa are cities in Palestine, as the book claims – can Israel really exist? (and please don’t tell me that text is about the ‘land of Palestine’. a land has no capital).
Does the PA assume that by the time the kids learning from these books grow up this going to be the reality?
Honestly, don’t you see a problem here?

About Jerusalem being capital – let’s get technical on this one:
Jerusalem (its west side) has been the capital of Israel since its declaration. It’s independence has been recognized by the UN at 1948.
The eastern side is an occupied part of Jordan, but since Jordan doesn’t seem too troubled about Jerusalem, I don’t see a problem there. Especially when we do have peace agreement with them, and several projects in different areas.
My point is – On what ground can the PA claim Jerusalem (entirely or in part) as its capital?
Simply because they want it to be their capital?
Simply because it’s an easy symbol to follow?
or maybe, because when Jerusalem is presented as the end of the struggle, people will struggle as hard as they can just to get there, no matter the cost?
When Arafat called for million of ‘martyrs’ to go to Jerusalem (I said thousands before but I’ve just found the quote), did he mean them to negotiate till death?
or did he mean they should struggle, hurt, kidnap, kill and murder all the way to Jerusalem?

well well Omeran

When did i claim that what is written in text books is a Forgery ? Please quote me saying it!
What i said is that it’s obvious that our text books need a lot of Reforms, and your texts books are far away from being perfect!

Jerusalem, capital or not, we can discuss this, but on neutral terms, there is nothing called ” Realistic” in politics! We CREATE reality and as i said before, we can’t have all what we want, and you cant have all what you want, you don’t decide what’s the extent of concessions we have to make, and we don’t decide what is the extent of concessions have to make! So, in short, The only way is to go and sit around a ROUND TABLE , and to talk! Not on anybody’s terms! Without any PRECONDITION! Israel, Syria, Lebanon, Fateh, Hamas, The PLO, The palestinian authority, egypt, jordan, the Gulf states …! We all have to sit around one big round table and TALK SERIOUSLY! That’s what i call a middle eastern SUMMIT! Syria and lebanon might not want to participate at the first few stages… But i must remind you that your government will not accept to participate in such a summit either at this point, i have no idea why and the explanations in the Media are not fulfilling me…

Just as you believe and feel that Jerusalem is yours, i believe and feel that it is mine, the only difference between me and you is that you have full access to jerusalem, while i have no access at all… Your side sets the rules (no justification for this…) and i don’t have a say! And it’s not only jerusalem! It’s the Settelments around it…. The settelments in the West Bank..the West Bank as a whole, your side seems to have more say than me in my own backyard! Funny, don’t you think? How can you justify it? does this have anything to do with Textbooks ? The day you will change all this and the day you become PERFECT, i will accept all your comments! but till now, you are far away from having the ” Perfection” that gives you a right to say who is right and who is wrong! I don’t have it either….but i don’t have the arrogance to say that I AM RIGHT And YOU ARE WRONG, I have the honesty to say : Let’s Talk , on neutral terms, without using words such as ” Reality” , because we both know that reality can get changed very easily! Israel changed loads of realities on the ground…but i can assure you that just as jerusalem is disputed, these realities are even ten times more than just disputed, but this time, the international community stands by us more than ever when it comes to this…! Settelments can easily disappear, walls can Fall, roadblocks can vanish…and who knows, Jerusalem can GET DIVIDED too….it just takes some wise honest men and women to sit together and to talk seriously about EVERYthing without saying ” no, i don’t want to talk about this…not today, Honey….i have a headache ”

I’m sure that if we try to find a solution to this conflict all together here….If we try to Negotiate something and then vote for it all of us over here! I’m sure we will come up with something VERY interesting!…And i’m sure that it won’t take more than TWO months to come up with this solution! And this, if it happens, will show all of us how much our leaders NEVER TRIED ( at least for the last 10 years…)…. i always say that the Best Way not to finish something is to take the middle eastern example…. And i so much want an END to this! ( and to tell you everything, i do have my own political aspirations…not that it’s a Dream, but i feel that it’s a Duty!and who knows…maybe one day, i will get somewhere…)

Just remember, WHEN THERE IS A WILL, THERE IS A WAY! ..our problem is that THE WAY is here! The will isn’t….

” or did he mean they should struggle, hurt, kidnap, kill and murder all the way to Jerusalem?”

As for this one, I just have on thing to say : WOW! I wonder how you define a ” Palestinian” …..

I shall remind you that Arafat said ” Peace of the Brave” too..did you forget this? You know what? i prefer to leave you with your interpretations of things …. ( because till now, it’s just interpretations and judgements of values…)….

Arafat once talked about a Gun and an Olive Branch….Sadly enough, everyone is trying to let the Olive Branch fall…i chose the Olive Branch and will hold to it no matter what happens! ( unless a settler comes and uproots my olive tree)

Rita rita ….

And i quote ” There you go again; Ariel Sharon visited the Temple Mount, a revered symbol of Judaism. Arafat was waiting for just such an opportunity with which to cloak his demands for concessions as a response to ‘aggression’ on the part of Israel/Sharon by visiting the Temple Mount. ”

Sharon didn’t Visit the Temple Mount…sharon came along with 2000 Soldiers…many knesset members and ministers go to the temple mount weekly, they never take 2000 Soldiers along with them… Especially on a muslim prayer day!!!! …and in case you don’t know this little VERY IMPORTANT detail : The jerusalem Police commander was not in jerusalem that day,he was in Tel Aviv …His coleague gave orders ” to shoot” by PHONE!…the Real police commander knew about the incident (More like the catastrophy) hours after it took place and said ” This was THE mistake not to make…” … but i don’t know why, some people chose to forget this quite IMPORTANT detail..

2000 Soldiers…VERY HEAVILY ARMED ( as if Sharon knew that this was going to happen…OH..maybe he did! )

and Rita,

I never denied my part of the guilt, i just want others to accept that they are guilty as well, I hate patronization and i hate Monoplies of all sorts of stuff ( suffering, truth…..) ! Anyways….It’s not GUILT that we should discuss, it’s RESPONSIBILITY! Guilt can only HURT! Responsibility can BUILD! I will feel guilty the day i will see my children still living in a war because my generation didn’t move a finger in order to stop this! That’s when i will feel Guilty! Till now , i feel responsible, and believe it or not, i’ll do everything possible so that this responsibility never becomes Guilt!

Ramzi,
Sharon applied for a permit prior to his visit to the Temple Mount. There was no vanguard of Israeli troops. After his departure is when the riot broke out, and at that time soldiers attempted to halt the riot. As a result of that riot, 30 people were hurt, and of that 30 people most were Israeli soldiers. They were called to the scene, they did not accompany Sharon.

There are a few interesting sites to look at for background information, one of which I found revealing in the extreme: http://www.masada2000.org/templemount.html. You might have a look at it.

I also recommend this one: http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0215/p08s02-comv.html?s=hns
I have my doubts about some of what it says, but anything that helps would be welcome.

If Arafat felt so fondly about the symbolism of an olive branch beyond mouthing the words to reflect well upon him, why did he carry a gun on his person when he addressed the United Nations?

Ramzi, so much of what you claim in such inimical details would seem to me to be in the realm of scandalized bubbe meintzes, grandmotherly tales of outrage, known in western circles as embroideries or urban myths, whose purpose is to feed a scandal, a belief, a sense of outrage, while being far from the actual reality of the event.

I would rather agree with you in your contentions that there has been more than enough blame, more than enough blood shed, more than enough hopes dashed, more than enough time gone by, wasted and nothing accomplished.

Give up your myths, insist that others do too, wherever those others reside, and get on with life.

As I said previously in this conversation –
When Jerusalem is set as a goal, and millions are called to give their lives in order to take it – this isn’t a call for negotiation. this is a call for violence.
Arafat said all sort of things. Since then, Palestinians got autonomy, we got rockets in Shderot and Ashkelon, and yet more suicide bombers.
I have never defined Palestinians as people who would do the horrible things I mentioned.
I work with Palestinians (or Israeli-Arabs, I’m not even know if there is a distinction). One of them was one of the calmest people I’ve known (he left a month ago, though), and another is in the same team that I’m in, so we do work closely, eat together, etc..
That said, there are numerous Palestinian organizations that declares openly that will kill their way to Jerusalem. (again – you don’t get ‘martyrs’ from negotiations)
Not mentioning Israel in textbooks, implies even the existence of Israel is negotiable.
Can you think of any country that would negotiate its demise?
Where did you read that Sharon came to the western wall with 2000 soldiers?
Isn’t that outright incitement?

Masada2000 is a VERY VERY bad example Rita, now i understand most of your positions….to tell you the truth, i filed a Racism complaint against Masada in France and Belgium not very long ago and i’m waiting for a reply! It’s official…so i’m sorry to tell you that I won’t even bother to enter their WebSite…which is Illegal

Ok…

Rita, you want me to give up my myths ( anthropologically) ? why don’t you give you yours too? wouldn’t it be more Equal and honest? otherwise, i can tell you that it’s Ethnocentrism and that you really are in no position to ask me to give up anything! Just as i am in no position to ask you to give up anything, Back to my starting point, NEGOTIATIONS!

Omeran

I didn’t only read! I know! I witnessed! I was in jerusalem that day, no i ‘m not a muslim, but i was there that day and saw it all! I’m not the only one who saw it all, Hundreds of journalists followed sharon to the place! ( do you happen to watch TV sometimes? do you happen to listen to Galey Tsahal ?…. Anyways…i really suggest that you Get rid of all your assumptions and beliefs and try to get more objective! I won’t give you links to show you that Sharon went along with 2000 Soldiers ( the funny thing is that the moment of the Clash, the 2000 soldiers were there…it’s really interesting HOW FAST they came! ( knowing that in order to find 1000 Soldiers in order to reoccupy the WestBank, it took sharon almost a week!)

Again, the past won’t change anything, i hold Sharon VERY guilty, you hold arafat guilty…and then ? what’s new ? What do you suggest ? That i give up everything ? That’s what you and Rita are asking me to do! To give up my Jerusalem Dream, to give up my so called ” Myths” , to give up the WestBank, to stop asking for my rights because it’s israel’s right to defend itself, to accept the Wall because it’s legitimate( and according to who???)….don’t you want me to commit suicide too while we are at it ?

Asking me to do such things shows how much you refuse to accept the reality of this conflict! It shows how much you are unwilling to find a solution! Your solution is simply the ISRAELI position without negotiations, without anything! sorry my friends…but i have to tell you that if you have to start by giving up something, it’s this, it’s the IDEA that you are the only legitimate side of the conflict ! YOU ARE NOT! we are two ( or more ) legitimate sides…. What is so hard in what i am saying ? i mean lets face it! Either we negotiate without any silly preconditions, or we face violence, hate, and war! It’s as easy as that! and don’t try giving me arguments such as ” we don’t negotiate with this and that” …we both know that today or tomorrow or next year, you will end up negotiating with your worst enemy so why don’t we all start today and save a hundreds and thousands of lives ? ( this goes to Syria and lebanon too…)

and Omeran, one last thing, Jerusalem is not a Goal, the goal is PALESTINE with east jerusalem as it’s Capital!…I don’t want my grandfather’s house back which is in Mamila, 1948 line….I only want the 1967 jerusalem, the one you claim is ” Jordanian occupied territory…” there is something called the Right to self determination, whether jordanian, chinese or japanese, most of the Planet agrees that this part is not yours and that it’s population is palestinian! ( yep… even your government calls them palestinians…and i dont think that they moved in after 1967…they were called palestinians from the very begining…my father is Palestinian too and he was born under jordanian rule in Bethlehem, my grandfather is Palestinian and he was born under Ottoman rule in Jerusalem…. and my jerusalemite friends are also palestinians and were born under israeli rule in jerusalem ( just like me, i was born in jerusalem, the only difference is that i hold a Green ID card while they are blue) We all are palestinians! We believe in it more than anything! Whether you like it or not won’t change the fact that we ARE what we are, whether we live in Lebanon, syria, Palestine, Israel, Egypt, jordan ( or even in some western countries), we all share one common thing : WE ARE PALESTINIANS! So now, having said that , all my claims are AS valid as your claims …. Just respect that!

If hundreds of journalists followed Sharon, where are the pictures of the troops surrounding him?
I think you put words in my mouth that aren’t mine.
I’m not asking to give up a dream, hope, or an identity.
The only thing I ask to give up is violence as a legitimate instrument.

Yaser,
Wow it seems that there is a lot going to be happening in Syria with the elections and all. But i have a question for you, do you really think its going to change anything?
so i witnessed the elections in Egypt last year and all i saw was fraud, fraud and more fraud, and that’s Egypt not Syria, meaning that Egypt was slightly influenced by the US and Mubarak didn’t get a 99.999% vote!
Last elections in Syria the President received 99.9% of votes. So once again i ask you do you think there will be a change?

A slight correction –
I’m not asking to give up a dream, hope, or an identity as a precondition.
I do expect willingness to compromise on certain issues as I’m sure Palestinians expect Israelis to compromise on certain issues.
As both sides’ dreams can’t be fulfilled fully in civilized manner, both sides need to prepare to make compromises.
The agreement I aspire for is not a temporal one, which will only be a step closer to full realization of the dream, but an agreement in which both sides are content, and do give up the rest of the dream.

Ramzi,
No one asks you to give up your hopes for the future. No one would want you to. They’re legitimate and they’re yours. You’re a proud Palestinian and you have good reason to be proud. You’ve said time and again you reject the violence and idiocy represented by the rabid militants and the politicians respectively. So do we all.

Your position that everything is on the table is a fairly rigid one, given that the Palestinians stand to gain a much-deserved state of their own, and the Israelis stand to lose the state they have at present. There are some things which cannot be negotiated. Look at it objectively, if ‘right of return’ were to become a fact, Israel would fail to exist. Think rationally: of the what, 600K who left, there are now 6M. The entire population of Israel at present is roughly that, including its minorities of Druze, Christians and Palestinians.

What you indignantly claim as your right is akin to ‘heads I win, tails you lose’. No contest.

What Palestinians have to accept is that violence is not a workable bargaining chip. An earnest desire, which you often express, to bargain the matter out in a matter fair to both sides, including each side giving up issues dear to themselves. The West Bank and the former borders are a case in point; they, like Gaza, should be transferred to PA authority, but guess what? Israelis will wonder why they suffered so much anguish over giving them up if the transfer ends up the chaos that Gaza did.

How can Israel sit down in good faith with the current political representatives of the Palestinian people? No sooner was the Mecca deal agreed to and signed off by Fatah and Hamas, than Haniyeh is recanting, insisting that Abbas agree to additional demands. This, my friend, violates the essence of the Fatah-Hamas imperfect agreement in any event; is this how one bargains in good faith. If these two antagonists with much in common, especially their representation of the Palestinian needs, cannot agree, how can they bargain in good faith with Israel; how can Israel trust them to bargain in good faith? You want Israel to put ‘everything on the table’, but to do so is virtual suicide.

Here’s an intneresting quote from a writer I respect, George Jonas: “Palestinians and Israelis are like all other people who ever go to war: They want peace, bu they want it less than something else. in particular, they want peace less than being masters in what they both consider their own house. If they liked peace more, they could have had it from the start. As Palestinian Jews or Israeli Arabs they could have lived in multinational harmony. Or they could have split the land between them, as the world community suggested, and alll Jews accepted in 1948. Maybe one day all Palestinians will accept it too. Until then, let them fight.” He sounds weary of it all, doesn’t he?

Some of what he articulates sounds reasonably close to things you have said yourself.

You don’t like the Masada web site? How about this one: http://www.aafaq.org?

Rita,

“Christians and Palestinians.” …is being Palestinian a RELIGION ? ….i am a Palestinian Christian… ( just a point of info, i don’t want to underline the fact that i am christian, but the one that i am palestinian…andwhen you say ” Christians and Palestinians” you are falling into the Neo conservative trap ( yep..It is a TRAP)…

And you are talking a lot about Violence… What violence ? define violence! Did anyone bomb a bus inside israel during the last 8 months? Did anyone shoot anybody ( other than Soldiers, inside the WestBank, who usually are very legitimate targets and who take the risk of getting shot at, their presence is Not desired…which is natural i guess , you wouldn’t like meeting Armed palestinian militants in the middle of Tel Aviv i guess) during the last 8 months ? …oh Qassams….do you think that anybody controls them ? They are GANGS! A mafia! The USA, the country who uprooted the Taliban, the military power that invaded Iraq etc…is not able to deal with it’s own gangs…do you really expect us to be able to stop them at this point ? We are suffering from the same violence and it’s really frustrating that you REALLY believe that we agree with them! … Yes , Some palestinians agree with hamas, Hamas gave up Violence against israel! I hate hamas, i cant stand them but i have to be honest, from the day Arafat Died, Hamas is the side that attacked the least! and when they attacked, they attacked SOLDIERS ( the most legitimate war target), not mentioning that they didn’t attack them for no reason! Hamas said ” Recognize us, we recognize you”….. Again , i hate hamas, but one has to be honest and realistic! Jean Moulin was once a Terrorist , Charles de Gaulle was once a terrorist, Ben Gurion was once a Terrorist….

Honestly, those who hear you talking would think that violence is everywhere and that the fact that Palestinians breath is violence in itself! Sorry rita, but no! I suggest that you ask yourself WHY there is violence! You cant get attacked without retaliating, you can’t accept to get arrested ( for political reasons) and not Fight back! You can’t accept to see your house getting demolished and just sit their and watch! You can’t accept having your land siezed for such a disgraceful thing as the Wall and just sit their and watch this! You can’t look at a soldier who spits in your face and yells at you and calls you names and very often, hits you and gets quite violent with you, and just tell him ” I understand you” , you can’t accept the FACT that the road next to your house is Blocked and that your movement is extremely restricted…you can’t accept that everybody calls you ” a Terrorist” because you hold this or that nationality and much much more! All of this dear Rita is called Symbolic Violence! And the Israeli State is swimming deeply inside this Symbolic violence against us! some of us get crazy and reply with physical violence! The only difference is that the physical violence has a very limited Ratio and touches only those who are physically around it while the symbolic one has a GLOBAL ratio and hurts even those who are living in other countries! …( did i talk about Collective punishement? I would replace it with GLOBAL punishement….) Do you want me to adopt the idea of ” No negotiations under violence” ? I can do it, and that day, a very vicious circle will get created…. you can imagine why…

Another typo :p : Their = There sometimes… Sowwy!

Another comment rita : I really find it Disgusting when the world thinks that it has the POWER to decide who decides for us, Haniyeh and Abbas signed the agreement yesterday night, but this is nobody’s business, you HAVE to accept whoever represents us! We don’t choose your ( western countris) leaders, try not having the arrogance of choosing ours! PLEASE!

Dalia,
I think change is possible if the Syrian people decide to take action and demand their right to have a representative and democratic elections, what we should do is to make their task of fraud harder and that by taking part in the election process on all levels (campaigning, voting and monitoring )and I am hopeful that we can make a difference this time around.

Ramzi –
Does a suicide bombing in Eilat counts?
I mean – it’s not tens of deads, but it’s the same organizations, the same explosives, and the same motives.
The only difference is that this one wasn’t stopped.

Qassams can be stopped. Those isn’t firecrackers – they require real explosives and workshops in which they are produced.
Dealing with your own people should be much easier than someone else deals with them.

Was Ben-Gurion a terrorist? really? what did he do?

When exactly did Hammas give up violence?
The most optimistic declarations were that ‘negotiations are an option as well’ (quoting from memory.
This is far from giving up violence.

Well omeran my friend, memory is selective!….

Here is a list of some Zionnist terrorist acts , all this for the sake of creating a State…just like us…

1.King David Hotel, July 22, 1946.
2. Sharafat, Feb. 7, 1951.
3. Deir Yassin, April 10, 1948.
4. Falameh, April 2, 1951.
5. Naseruddine, April 14, 1948.
6. Quibya, Oct. 14, 1953.
7. Carmel, April 20, 1948.
8. Nahalin, March, 28, 1954.
9. Al-Qabu, May 1, 1948.
10. Gaza, Feb. 28, 1955.
11. Beit Kiras, May 3, 1948.
12. Khan Yunis, May 31, 1955.
13. Beitkhoury, May 5, 1948.
14. Khan Yunis Again, Aug. 31, 1955
15. Az-Zaytoun, May 6, 1948.
16. Tiberia, Dec. 11, 1955.
17. Wadi Araba, May 13, 1950.
18. As-Sabha, Nov. 2, 1955.
19. Gaza Again, April 5, 1956.
20. Houssan, Sept. 25, 1956.
21. Rafa, Aug. 16, 1956.
22. Qalqilyah, Oct. 10, 1956.
23. Ar-Rahwa, Sept. 12, 1956.
24. Kahr Kassem, Oct. 29, 1956.
25. Gharandal, Sept. 13, 1956.
26. Gaza Strip, Nov. 1956.
26. Gaza Strip, Nov. 1956.

Terrorism is always a LAST RESORT when everything else fails! That’s the history of humanity! Look at the Japanese Kamikaze! Look at the French Resistance who had to bomb TRAINS at some point! All of these are ACTS are terrorism ( considering to the current definition of terror…)

As for the Eilat attack, Do you really think that Haniyeh’s Hamas had anything to do with this ? I can tell you the answer is a SURE no ! Hamas, like Fateh, is not ONE anymore!

The organizations who took (or maybe, fought over) the responsibility were the Islamic Jihad, Al-Aktza martyrs brigade, and I really don’t remember the last one.
These are organizations are operating from the PA territories, and the PA must assume responsibility over it.
Terrorism can never be accepted as any kind of resort.
It can never stand as an alternate option.
When one considers the option of terror it means he never wanted peace.

King David Hotel explosion was not conducted or directed by Ben-Gurion. It was performed by the Lehi, and was followed by Ben-Gurion declaring the organization and its heads outlaws.
I’m going to address a single case to emphasize two points.
The incident in Kfar Qassem at 1956, where 48 civilians were executed by Israeli soldiers, presumably by orders they had.
This case is taught ever since to high-school student and then again to every soldier, as the example of an illegal order which every soldier must know he must not obey. This is the education that Israeli kids get.
Is there something similar that is taught by the PA education system?

The second point I’d like to emphasize, is the power of brainwash (and the power of google).
This exact list, has been copy-pasted over 197 times in the Internet (that’s just from google hits).
I can also say that most of the people who pasted it (including you, I’m afraid), didn’t even go over it, but just assumed it’s correct.
By strange coincidence, Kfar Qassem is written in you list as “Kahr Kassem”.
Some variations between the writings are negligible, but not “Kahr”.
“Kahr Kassem” appears in google 197 times and only at the context of this list (there’s a single variation of another list, but spare me that).
Also, the recurrence of number 26 is repeated in most instances of this list (including yours).
So please, let me have the benefit of the doubt that if practically no-one who used this list actually read it, then maybe – just maybe there are inaccuracies in the stories behind them.
It can be very well true that in some of the cases in the list, there have been war crimes. like I said in the beginning of this comment – Israel does regret this, and it’s education system is a proof of that.
It can be very true as well, that some of these cases are subjective one-sided stories which can be subjectively described as terror.

I’m sorry.
“Brainwash” might be a too strong word.
“propaganda” is a more accurate term.

Ok ,

You finally got my point Omeran! Let me tell you something, now i think is the right time to say it.

I’m glad that you found out that this list was copied and pasted! And that’s the point!
I’m a Bachelor to be ( in about 2 months) in Social sciences, in sociology and political sociology…I would not fall into this ” Propaganda” thing because my formation , my intellectual developpement due to what i am studying makes me automatically look at other things.

Now why did i copy and paste this list? It was a Test, Rita directed me to Masada2000’s Website, you directed me to other militant websites. Didn’t you do the same thing ? Are your militants more honest than our militants ? I can tell you that both are as ignorant as each other! Don’t worry, i read the list many times, all the events that are mentioned did take place! just like the events that are mentionned on Pro-Israel websites, including the website of the Israeli army and of the website of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs or the Israeli ministry of defense ( or any other ministry in the world). Everything is TRUE most of the times, but what is different is the interpretation of what happened! Socially, everything has a function, and such lists, whether palestinian of israel have a Militant function, a very important role when it comes to a conflict like ours! But what our lovely militants forget is that Militantism is selective blindness, it’s a choice to see things and not to see other things.
If the israeli side is powerful in the USA it’s not because of the “JEWS WHO RULE THE WORLD…” maybe some jewish pro zionnist people in the congress or some neo conservatives here and there play an important role, but that’s not the main reason of the support of the american population. This support is explained ( according to me) by the fact that americans function by publicity( it’s the capitalistic approach), americans function by emotions and images are a very good way to trigger some emotions, the Pro-israel in the USA and Canada have been working a lot with Videos, with websites, with images! the Pro Palestinian side just started using this, but the Pro israeli side is more used to this kind of ” Manipulation” of the audience! while the Palestinian side is not! That’s why such lists do not appear ” realistic” when they are written by a pro palestinian and appear VERY true when they are written by a pro-israel person. It’s all a question of appearance! Our conflict is much more complicated than what you see in the media and in those meaningless ” Militant” websites. I think that each one of us has to do some great amounts of thinking and of reflexivity! Some people prefer themselves on TV more than in reality! You know why ? simply because there are image experts who would idealize the image of the person and make him Less What he is, more what he is, or even make him something else! that’s called the TV effect! The funny thing is that it has been observed that some people tend to adopt their TV selves and let go their real personalities! Lately, this process is changing , progressing and becoming more holistic! the media in general and The internet in particular can ruin a whole population , it can stigmatize , it can give labels… That’s why we all should get more ” Realistic” and try to see what is hidden behind these ” Fast-Images” ( Fast-food) , instead of assuming that what we read is true!

So your remark about this list is accepted, but keep in mind that all what you read is as valid as this list! Everything! Militant sources are the LAST place to find true stuff…

There’s a problem with the definition of ‘Militant sources’.
Seems to me that both of us have difficulties accepting claims from pro-other-side sources.
I do believe that this gap in perception is limiting our ability to work toward a solution.
That’s precisely the reason I’m here –
To be able to hear and be heard directly, and not through the media.
To exchange personal experiences, ideas and beliefs, rather then repeating other people’s beliefs (or at least – the negative ones).

Yes omeran i agree with you! And now, we have to work towards a neutral perception, no matter how much it hurts! i know that its impossible to impose this difficult task on our two nations, but our negotiators should adopt this! They both have to stop being RADICAL PRO’s they have to become Rational Pro’s…our region lacks a lot of Reflexivity and rationalisation! I think that good Neighbors is a great place in order to start this process!!!

Ramzi, about the lack of attacks throughout the last 8 months; attributable to that very restraining wall that helps to make such a misery of your life. Lack of opportunity, or at least hindrance to a great degree.

No, Ramzi, I don’t equate all Palestinians with the commission of violence, far from it. I’m not quite that stupid. The Palestinian population in aggregate is no different than that population among whom I live here in Canada. Similar needs and aspirations, only difference is we harbour minor frustrations while yours are huge in magnitude. I don’t consider Palestinians to be monolithic in character and outlook and disposition; you’re just like any other group of people living communally, other than the fact that you have a common background, tradition, culture, social structure. And some.

I can understand your frustrations, it must be horrible to live with the ongoing constraints that Israel imposes to protect herself. Guilt by association, but do you have a better more immediate solution until the final one is achieved?

It has become a vicious cycle, with no one trusting anyone else, and blame and hatred well fuelled by maddening frustration, a truncation of normal living patterns.

And Ramzi, you’re absolutely right. Only you can select your representatives. But you’ve got to think about the end result of the process, as well. What’s been achieved?

Omeran is perfectly right; here we are, slightly closer than strangers, but worlds apart, listening to one another, honestly attempting to find common ground and failing by and large. Our interests remain too far apart, perhaps, although in truth they needn’t be. The thing of it is, if we struggle like this to understand one another, to be more sensitive of each others’ concerns, and yet we succumb to history and retelling of history each from our own perspectives, and blame which accompanies it, we’re accomplishing nothing.

It’s reflective of what’s happening at the political level. If we cannot achieve some level of agreement, understanding, common resolution, how the hell can we expect the imperfect intelligence of our political representatives to do any better?

What an incredible conundrum.

Ramzi,
I seem to have left you with a misunderstanding I’d like to clear away. It would appear that I have somehow left you with the impression that the news media in Canada is not sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. Nothing could be further from the truth. The truth is, in fact, that the plight of the Palestinian people is well reported, in the context of the unresolved problems between Israel and the PA and well beyond that issue.

Canadians, in fact, harbour great sympathy for the Palestinian people. Don’t think for one moment that among the general population here in Canada sympathy for Israel is a slam-dunk; it isn’t at all. Some media, in fact, express a definite slant toward the Palestinians as opposed to the Israeli situation. While in the same token every media source is responsive to the need for Israeli’s secure presence as an accepted state in the region. They also feel an acute obligation to the aspirations of Palestinians to secure a state and an authentic presence of their own.

Rita,

I really suggest that you Review your sources about the claim that the wall Stops bombers…. Let me tell you that i can get to jerusalem in 3 minutes, the wall will not stop me and checkpoints will not stop me either, ok, if i get stopped inside, i’m gone forever…I entered jerusalem daily FOR 12 YEARS,even during the most disgusting periods, do you think that anybody stopped me? I could have carried with me thousands of tons of explosives, i don’t look arab…and there are many like me over here and i can tell you, even now, i can enter jerusalem in a few seconds! I guess that if i, normal person, can do it, a bomber can do it! You really have to live here to understand this! Anyways, do you seriously think that a Bomber who doesnt give a damn about life will get stopped by a wall? he has nothing to fear, he is going to die anyways; he wants to die, look at the guy who blew himself up in Eilat, not only did he pass by a fence, he entered through many frontiers ( Gaza, Jordan , Egypt, and Israel) ! Walls, checkpoints , road blocks are only Terror generators! as easy as that… they don’t stop as much as they create bombers!

And this wall will FALL and will be remembered as a very ugly page of history ( not only it is ugly and racist, but it’s built inside non-israeli lands too, it is a hate creator, a murderer, a serial killer…it kills slowly but surely) I can hear anything, i can listen to anything, But when it comes to defending something such as this horrible creation of the devil, i can’t hear it!

Rita,have a look at this:A DEBATE BETWEEN TWO BETHLEHEMITES

http://www.abrahamic-faith.com/Debates/A debate between two Bethlemites.html

G. this is LOW!

I had the opportunity to comment about that ” False” debate that Mr. shoebat Created and sent me an email two days later saying ” Please sue us”…It’s very easy to quote things!

Anyways, Yaeli, i have to ask you to remove this link from this blog and to try to warn G not to personally attack people, i can do it too and i can do it very well. I Guess that if his Name is G. it’s for a reason, that’s why i want this link to get removed! If my name is Ramzi.S. it’s for a reason too and i don’t want any details to appear on this blog for the moment, it’s called Privacy Mr. G….. you probably know nothing about it! THIS IS LOW! Very low! VERY VERY LOW!

G – To be fair, it doesn’t seem like an email, but a very detailed answer for an email, but I really liked what I read.

Ramzi – The fact that the bombing was in Eilat shows exactly that the wall/fence is indeed effective, since the borders with Egypt and and Jordan are much less guarded.
How is it racist? I do accept the claim that some of it is built on occupied land. Our high court of justice has overturned several times decisions regarding where it is built, because it thought their impact on the Palestinians would be too severe, comparing to the gain in security.
True, this is OUR high court of justice. But until the Palestinians have a formal institute which is capable of making pro-Israeli decisions, I don’t think you can offer a better path for the fence/wall.
I want to address something you wrote in the email to Walid Shoebat:
“I would love to see you crying for the loss of your child who got shot without having anythign to do with any conflict! Just for the Fact of standing next to a window in front of a snipper, this was the case of my friend Moussa Abu Eid from beit jalah!”
So, the tragic situation that you describe, is a child, standing next to a window in front of a sniper.
Would it also be correct to describe it as a sniper standing behind a window next child?
How would you describe a militant that takes a position, next to a civilian (not to mention, a child), who is much less defended than his position?

arrg, I hate forgetting to close my tags.

Well omeran,

we are not in the States where you have huge empty places! Here, in the palestinian territories, There is no PLACE other than between the people! Those who your Air Force executed were not hiding between people, they were just in the Streets, even if they had the responsibilty and said to themselves ” i shouldn’t be here” there is no place to go! in order to understand this, one has to enter the palestinian territories!

My friend’s brutal execution is Terror! it’s not self defense! You know what happened when his family went to the court in order to get a fair trial ? The Judge proudly told them that this was nobody’s fault and that their son is a “War Casualty” … they didn’t recieve a simple recognition, an apology, a condemnation! nothing! They just burried their son, under curefew! The question of ” Who killed him” had a clear answer, after shooting him, a jeep came to his house to see if they killed the ” Terrorist”, when they found out the the Dead person was a child , they left….as if nothing happened! NOTHING CAN JUSTIFY THE KILLING OF AN INNOCENT! That day, the soldiers recieved the order to kill whatever that moves…and it was him… he had nothing to do with politics, he even didn’t know the names of those leading the country…. and he couldn’t care less! He spent his life playing tennis and his dream was to become a proffesional tennis player, he was not far away from his goal and was about to join the National Tennis federation….

how is the Wall racist ? That’s an easy one! when everyone does everything to make the life of 500 settlers easier , while knowing that this will jeopardize the life of hundreds of thousands of palestinians and really doesn’t care, this is RACISM! a Settler will never have more rights than me in my own back yard! Believe it or not, the day a settler will dare to put his disgraceful feet in my backyard, i will simply burry him there ( alive because unlike him, i can’t kill) ! As disgusting as this might sound, that’s SELF DEFENSE too…. Just as israel kills any terrorist who enters it’s Territories and everybody finds this legitimate, i have the RIGHT to defend myself from any terrorist that enters my territory! If it’s valid for one side, it MUST be valid for the other! And israel is doing nothing to stop it’s terrorists…. on the contrary… which violates the road map…. ( and the circle can go on for years and years….what a wonderful laundry list…)

Anyways; as you can see Omeran, we can dicuss this for years, we will always Turn around the events and never treat the real subject! The only way to get to the point is to NEGOTIATE!

I am here to Change and to adapt to REALITY and i think we all have to do this, we have to neutralize the effect of the Media and of the social ideas and stereotypes that exist on both sides and that are not VERY TRUE….! If anyone of us feels that he is not willing to change, then i really believe that this person has nothing to do here ( You probably know who i’m talking about). I don’t want to change people, i just want to change myself! Lisoooosh once said that she gave up ” Wanting to change people” …well i gave it up too, that’s why i’m changing myself and by doing this, i believe that everyone has the Rationality needed in order to CHANGE! I still believe in humanity….call me crazy…but i still do….

Hopefully this would correct the previous problem I created.
I think what I just said about our high court of justice proves that not everybody does everything just to make the lives of the Palestinians harder.

(nope, sadly, it didn’t)

G:
Thank you for directing me to the website. I thought at first it must be a “Jews for Jesus” site. Then I read the incredible dialogue between two antagonists, one named Ramzi, the other Walid. And I read and I read. And I was rather taken aback, astonished even. Does the Ramzi to whom we write here know the Ramzi S who signed off on that exchange? Should we direct him to the site, so he can take legal steps to challenge someone who is borrowing his name to create mischief?

That Ramzi’s statement to Walid Shoebat whom I would personally like to hug and thank for his eye-opening revelations: “your positions about Israel show clearly that you are biased and that you don’t know much about what is happening” sound suspiciously like the kind of retorts that this Ramzi engages in when he is confronted with an argument he finds unacceptable – rather than directly addressing the issues at hand.

The Ramzi in that dialogue demonstrates an inability to address himself to fact, but instead clings to the safe harbour of fiction. That Ramzi, who has taken the name of ‘our’ Ramzi in vain, sounds arrogant, deliberately obtuse, conflicted, clinging to victimhood to excuse general Palestinian failings, absorption in tribal blood feuds, general hatred and denial of any and all responsibility in creating their own plight.

Forgive me, I’m confused.

Ramzi,

The wall is not racist. It is a response to an untenable situation. There are times when peoples’ deadly animosity toward one another goes so far beyond endurance that they must be separated.

True, the wall is an awful separator in that it has miserable connotations, an acknowledgement that all else has failed and this is a medium of last resort. That is complicates innocent peoples’ lives is its other great failing, but it has also saved many other lives.

When at some future time we all hope to live to see come to fruition, the two solitudes can learn to live together in peace the wall will be declared an unneeded eyesore. Until then here does not appear to be any other way to create a separation to protect one side against the predators who exist on the other side, and who don’t seem to care that their deadly acts impinge so dreadfully on the lives of other Palestinians.

Rita,

that Ramzi talking to Shoebat is the SAME ramzi talking to you here, what you don’t know is that around this email, there was a HUGE context of almost 6 months of talking, or at least of trying to exchange some words! First of all, this was not a Dialog, it was an e-mail… he made it become a Dialog…

What happened is that at some point, the so called Walid started using a threatning language and that’s when he said that all palestinians are terrorists, that we didnt exist, that we are a creaton of i don’t know what…he was disgusting, and the day i got this email from him ( that i deleted because i don’t keep useless stuff, i never do…especially things from useless people like him), i replied with this Email that you know VERY WELL is authentic and you used Irony when you said : ” Does the Ramzi to whom we write here know the Ramzi Sfeir who signed off on that exchange? Should we direct him to the site, so he can take legal steps to challenge someone who is borrowing his name to create mischief? ” He published the Email, because the LOW person he is won’t think twice before doing such stuff, and he sent me an email saying ” Sue us please” … I won’t sue anybody, he used my name, you used it too ( Here on GNBLOG , i asked nicely that this link gets removed for this reason…it didn’t, and you read my comment up there and still didn’t hesitate to use my name…Again…) and be sure that i won’t play your dirty game! I am here for a constructive dialog and not for destructive monologues…. it has been working really well for the last 3 months…

I repeat , once and for all, This email is worth nothing without it’s context…. now you believe whatever you want, ( if you have some logic, you have been hearing my POSITIONS for the last few months over and over here on Gnblog, you shouldn’t rely on something such as this Email in order to know what i think…I have nothing to hide, my positions are CLEAR, Strong and nor Mr.Shoewhatever or any of his followers will be able to change WHAT I AM or who i am! ) i won’t play G.’s game, i won’t talk to G. at all by the way, i don’t like both his attitude and his tone, and now, his actions, he is not a Good neighbor as far as i am concerned, he is a bully! Having said that, I am in a legitimate position to say that people like G. are a risk for this Blog ( that i love) … a huge risk! … that’s why, i’m personally boycotting him FOREVER…why ? Simply because he never offered a different vision, he never offered new ideas, he only offers reasons to hate, reasons to fight! his tone is a tone of WAR not one of PEACE!! Because of his likes ( on both sides) we are currently in this turmoil!

and the FACT that rita calls this a ” DIALOGUE”‘ is the funniest part …. a Dialogue ? I really invite you to read the definition of a Dialog rita…

I will do this for you, there you go : ” A dialogue is a reciprocal conversation between two or more persons” …And this was everything but RECIPROCAL… you probably know what an Email is ?

By the way, i appriciate Omeran for noticing this…. ” G – To be fair, it doesn’t seem like an email, but a very detailed answer for an email “.

As you might have noticed, I notice many kinds of things.
Another thing I noticed is that you do seem to show hatred toward people with opposite opinions. be it Mr. Shoebat, or G..
You consider other people’s opinions as threats.
You say that your opinions are a part what what you are, and thus can’t be changed, yet when you can’t convince other people, you consider them hostile. Why is that?
Are you here just to convince others, and never allow yourself to be convinced?

Well omeran,

” Hatred” ? i think that this is a HUGE WORD to be used with extreme caution , especially when my problem with G. are not his opinions, but the arrogance in which he exposes them and the EXTREMES he uses in order to illustrate them… Shoebat is another story far away from ” Opinions” and i have to ask you not to go there,his OPINIONS were not the THREATS…the threat was when he said that I DIDN’T EXIST ( that’s an existencial genocidal threat) i’m sure he doesn’t need or want your defense. Omeran, i don’t agree with many people here, just as many people don’t agree with me, i just don’t attack them PERSONALLY (like G.) unless they attack me personally ( something that i can’t tolerate). We are here to talk, not to attack each other and so far, we have been talking! I started defending myself the day Rita said that arabs are violent by nature, then G. came with his wierd links and comments and it’s funny that he always talked to others about me and never answered any of my questions ( that’s what i call arrogance).

Anyways, consider this my CLOSING comment, not that i’m running away, but simply because i really am not interested in this kind of useless dialogue ….

(pfffff…hatred…WOW! )

you are welcome Rita.Walid Shoebat speaks a bit about his life in Beit Sahour-Bethlehem here:
http://www.shoebat.com/bio.php?PHPSESSID=ee1d7d591df8caea785e22100bada4a6

The debate between two Bethlemites or answer to email was fascinating indeed.Walid Shoebat is a good guy and should be a Palestinian HERO !!

KHALED ABU TOAMEH writes an excellent article [Jan. 25, 2007 15:00]
on the disappearing Christians in bethlehem .He writes about Fuad and Georgette Lama, who say PA officials have stolen their land and Samir Qumsiyeh, owner of the Beit Sahur-based private Al-Mahd (Nativity) TV station. “I believe that 15 years from now there will be no Christians left in Bethlehem. Then you will need a torch to find a Christian here. This is a very sad situation.”

“People are running away because the Palestinian government isn’t doing anything to protect them and their property against Muslim thugs”

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1167467807655&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

Oh and Asia News reported [08/22/2006 13:45] “Molotov cocktail against Christian activist’s home in Bethlehem”Samir Qumsieh, owner and director of the only private Christian Tv in Palestine, is the victim. For some time now, he has been receiving threats and has been the object of intimidation. Yet his appeals to the authorities have fallen on deaf ears.

An October 22 ,2004 Asia News profile called “Christian TV spreads the Gospel across the Holy Land” about Samir Qumsieh and al-Mahed TV states:”In 2000, PA President Yassir Arafat pulled the plug on the station for 20 days and Mr Qumsieh himself spent three days in jail for protesting against the closure of two TV station in Ramallah. Mr Qumsieh is the dean of the TV Private station Union. In fact, although in theory freedom of the press is guaranteed in Palestine, in practice editors and journalists cannot operate in total liberty. In 2003, al-Mahed condemned violence against civilians of all the groups (Palestinians and Israeli) strongly supporting peace in the region.”

btw the late Mayor Elias M. Freij of Bethlehem asked the Israelis to annex Bethlehem and the other Christian areas into Israel as autonomous Christian cantons. Now it’s part of the lawless PA

you are welcome Rita.Walid Shoebat speaks a bit about his life in Beit Sahour-Bethlehem here on his shoebat dot com site.

The debate between two Bethlemites or answer to email was fascinating indeed.Walid Shoebat is a good guy and should be a Palestinian HERO !!

KHALED ABU TOAMEH writes an excellent article [Jan. 25, 2007 15:00]
on the disappearing Christians in bethlehem .He writes about Fuad and Georgette Lama, who say PA officials have stolen their land and Samir Qumsiyeh, owner of the Beit Sahur-based private Al-Mahd (Nativity) TV station. “I believe that 15 years from now there will be no Christians left in Bethlehem. Then you will need a torch to find a Christian here. This is a very sad situation.”

“People are running away because the Palestinian government isn’t doing anything to protect them and their property against Muslim thugs”

M. Elias Freij…well you surely don’t know what he said better than me…you surely didn’t see him as much as i did, you probably didn’t talk to him as much as i did, you probably didn’t listen to him as much as i did…. he was my uncle! so….don’t put words in his mouth!

G. once again thank you.

As for Walid Shoeblatt, I’m thankful for his public utterances, his bravely obdurate presence, his honest distillation of the frantic fictions, the reworking of history, to reveal the unvarnished truth. I see from the Web site that he’s also spoken before the Asper Foundation in Winnipeg.

But where are all the others to join voice with him? That’s the truly troubling aspect of all of this. Doubtless they fear isolation like the Palestinian man who has taken it upon himself to put togethr a small memorial museum of fact on the Holocaust in his small village in his own attempts to educate Palestinians, and for his troubles has engendered the hostile reaction of familial and neighbourly disavowal and distance.

I’ve also read quite a bit about the plight of the Palestinian Christians in the area, how desperate they are and how the community itself is slowly evaporating, seeking emigration as a solution to their problems.

Are you aware of the written work of Irshad Manji? Also of Khaleel Mohammed, Department of Religious Studies, San Diego State U.? We had a Muslim moderate who was quite outspoken here, Tarek Fateh, and he had to step away from his work because of death threats uttered against him from hard-line Muslim factions here in Canada.

Rita,

No comment!

Rita,thanks for the info! I luv Irshad Manji and her refreshing views! Another person is M. Zuhdi Jasser is the chairman of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy who wrote a fascinating article recently “24 is an opportunity for American Muslims to fight the real enemy: Islamism” [January 29, 2007 5:00 AM - National Review Online ] Even the popular Egyptian blogger The Big Pharaoh in past has supported M. Zuhdi Jasser’s views!!

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